pokerlife
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Re: online Cash game KK cutoff errrrr.. double posted...sorry.
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Re: online Cash game KK cutoff This isn't a high M tournament situation but a deepstack (although not awfully deep) cash game. If my opponent has 40 BBs this is an easy call with my kings(in fact the 3bet is slightly over pot sized only). As far as Harrington on cash games(deff not as good as his tourny books) goes he doesnt give specific advice on this scenario but at the end of cash games v.2 you will find an interview with Bobby Hoff, arguably the best cash game player alive. He gives alot of insight into not only KK as a hand, but to deepstack dynamics. I dont know if the fold was correct in this circumstance but i would advise anyone who put it in the autocall catagory not to play deepstacked cash games for relevant stakes without considerable experience and research beforehand as this is clearly the worst answer(even worse then autofold!!). As it stands since beginning again online 4 months ago (800 hours) i have only folded KK twice preflop. I lost alot of money by not folding them preflop in another occassion where AA was by far the most likely holding of my opponent..
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Re: QQ Early in Turbo I'm sure it varies site from site but i have found that in turbos in low stakes that pf allins are frequent throughtout the first few levels at least. i wouldnt be surprised to see this turd turn over AT any pair KQ or KJs.This isnt an important(both in expected quality of play and stakes wise) enough tourny to have to make great laydowns, just call and if they have aces or kings you are in trouble, if they dont, you likely need to dodge an ace at min.You are a heavy favourite to have the best hand at this point in time.
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Re: Tough Spot...or Not There's alot of players who would refuse to fold KQ or AQ to allin on that flop, KT(if it's there) also.KK will not fold to you. I've seen players make similar calls with hands as weak as 2nd pair top kicker. Even if they can see your cards and play perfectly you'd want to jam,the far most likely outcome is that you take it down, a great result!! Giving a card cheaply here can't really help you IMO because there's not much for someone to catch which will allow them to catchup enough to play whilst not improving thier hand to the winning hand.
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Re: Tough Spot...or Not gross... you probably have to call against most mediocre players... all they could realistically have that beat you would be quad fours jacks full or queens full. QJ (the most likely problem hand on the flop) has been counterfieghted. Its completely realistic that they could turn over a combination of KK QJ or KT. This coupled with the odds means i am likely to call.. but i concur with most in this thread in saying that i would not have had a decision to make because i would have jammed that flop 100% of the time in this situation against most opponents.
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Re: Cash game hand - You played fine. You can't call the turn bet as he is saying he has a much stronger hand then yours by now but you cannot fold on the flop either.There are just too many occasions on that kind of flop where people will try to raise you off it thinking that you most likely had 2 high cards that missed the flop.The most important reason why you CAN NOT fold the flop is that you are in position and get a huge amount of information before your next decision(turncard +his action after checkraising you).If he checkraise-continue bluffs you then he has the heart of a lion and deserves to take it down for either great or awful play. Why should hero move allin on the flop? This appears to be the worst play to me; every hand you are losing to will call and every hand you are beating will fold. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: online Cash game KK cutoff
This is becoming a mute point. If you arent ruling out kings or queens then the 50% equity takes the likleyhood of all 3 hands into account. If its part of his range its part of his range' date=' if it isint, it isint. Folding KK pre against an unknown villian is deffo -EV. Will you fold KK every time an unknown villian 4 bets you from early position? 40 hands is not enough time for the stats or player behavior to affect your ranges.[/quote'] No that's wrong. You can decide that AA is more likely then QQ based on what you have seen. They are both equally likely mathematically(cards dealt from deck) but not equally likely when considering all infomation available. I don't fold KK every time(barely ever) i'm 3bet from early pos(although id fold QQ almost everytime; people simple dont 3bet hands like JJ and AK lightly in deep cash) but in this instance i think the fold is correct(or at the very least prudent) considering all the infomation available. 40 hands isn't enough to make large judgements but it is definately enough to alter you're perception of how someone plays, you can't ignore 40 hands of data. -
Re: online Cash game KK cutoff
it came out wrong clearly. I meant too much credit in expecting them to 3bet offering good odds to induce a call.I hav'n't seen that play much. it's typically; blow your load and get it all in or minraise. 2 extremes.Morning m8, How do you reckon I am giving them credit? You think they shoved with AA, I dont! If they were shoving with AA then it is a poor play, no credit from me on that one. I would guess they are playing AK or maybe qq. WhyThere is already $113.80 in the pot' date=' its $89.80 to call.[/quote'] sorry i must have lost a line while editing. The next line was supposed to say "although in this case pot odds clearly make a difference". -
Re: cash players advice small hand, small pot. Why raise and give them a chance to bluff you off it? as you will certainly be folding to a sizable raise(or any raise) if you bet. Edit* you can always blame the pf call as a randomizing play! it's only a small error anyway, although i wouldn't get into the habit of calling with hands like that too often.
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Re: online Cash game KK cutoff ECLACKER: Whilst players at this level are good preflop is thier starting requirements, i think you give thier play a little too much credit.This kind of play is actually more common then a small 3bet offering great odds with the top Pairs and i dont think i have seen JJ 3 bet, ever, deep online. BLATCH:Like i said in OP, i haven't been making any moves at all and have been slightly card dead in previous 40mins or so.He has only seen me reraise preflop once previously, with aces.Jam3bet is not uncommon for aa kk qq. STEVE-O This is deep stacked cash(although not too deep) so it is similar to early stages of a solid tourny with M's from 100-200.I am not playing scared, just trying to play correct.I think his range reasonably is: AA QQ KK and Bluff, Im willing to rule out KK due to it being very mathematically unlikely and i think AA is MUCH more likely then QQ.Why isnt my range wider? because 3betting preflop with AK or JJ against a deep opponent in a full ring cash game, even with no other info, is turning your hand into a bluff. I dont fold KK everytime i am 3bet pf, in fact; i rarely fold KK but i can fold it and think this is a reasonable situation to do so. ONE3TWO6: i dont need to narrow his range to only AA!!With KK, AA, QQ range; i just have to decide that AA is sufficiently more likely then QQ-KK and i am content to do so with the infomation available. Also; in a cash game KK IS NOT 0EV(50% equity) against a range of QQ-AA because you lose 5% of the pots you win to the rake.Although in this case pot odds clearly make a difference. Like i said if i had QQ i would instantly fold here knowing i am beat. I feel comfortable saying the range for a Non-tight player 3-betting at this level is QQ+ and AK for the looser ones(assuming deep stacked). For a tight player, from what i have seen, only AA, KK or a bluff. If i decide he is a tight and transparent player, then the fold is relatively easy. I clearly dont have enough hands to make solid judgement however, but i gave him the benefit of the doubt because: 1)he hadn't made any moves on the table 2) He appears to play position very favourably(he actually hadn't entered a pot in early or middle position yet) 3) His betting is indicative of AA-KK, especially at this level.
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Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Looser players can 3bet with QQ because they convince themselves that you could be reraising with AK and hence they should get the money in immediately. Clearly stupid logic on so many levels but used nonetheless. Similarly with AK they can figure because they have a king and ace that its unlikely(instead of less likely) that you have KK or AA and that you MUST be reraising with QQ and they can shove at a bad flip+ fold equ. It's allways frustrating to fold KK pf or even QQ though, especially when you are playing tight aggressive.
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What do you guys think of this? all feedback would be aprecciated(spelling?). Fulltilt .5/$1 i have 170, villain has 101.8. The relevant details from poker tracker are: VP4 PR4 agr-factor infinite. For those who are unfamiliar: VP is the % of the time that a player voluntarily puts money into the pot preflop, PR is the % of the time that a player Raises preflop(regardless of whether it's an open raise, a raise or a reraise) so someone with VP4 PR4 has played 4% of hands when required to enter the pot(as opposed to being in blinds where you are already in the pot and arn't required to enter) and has entered with a RAISE every time. I have a positional based stat also which says that he plays position very strongly. This suggests narrow ranges for early pos. He has however only been present for about 40 hands which weakens the stats' relevance. As far as any image players may have of me is concerned(not that i assume ppl are perceptive),It would be that of a tight player as i hav'n't had hands to steal blinds with, have performed few squeezes and have shown only premium pairs and aq+ hands in last 40 mins.I have only REraised pf once before, with aces, which i showed at the showdown. Dealer: You have been dealt [Kh Kd] Dealer: barcs69 folds Dealer: H-town_hottie raises to $3.50 Dealer: tg501 folds Dealer: mrmadcaddie folds Dealer: dirac74 folds Dealer: An Infidel raises to $12 Dealer: Stoystar folds Dealer: Pastanov-D folds Dealer: kazsud00 folds Dealer: H-town_hottie raises to $101.80, and is all in Dealer: An Infidel has 15 seconds left to act An Infidel: AA or QQ H-town_hottie: 22? I was leaning towards folding already but promptly folded after his reply. If i had QQ i would instant fold against most opponents(for context).
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Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player committed GAF. good job, seems to be just an interesting scenario to throw up. ill pose the question to some of my mates who are reg "cooler" and SNG players and see how they apply logic.:clap
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Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player I think the fact that he open limped in such a late position is indicative of weakness.Unless he has a good reason to suspect a raise. In cash games when against short opponents who employ this maneuver it generally means a middle or low pair, the thought process for them is something like "he probably raised with 2 high cards so i can get it all in in front", which is clearly flawed but common nonetheless. A player with aces wouldnt expect a raise unless there was a perenial raiser behind him because he limits the number of raising hands available by holding 2 aces. Gotafancy" if his range is 88-QQ AQ-AK, is it equitable to call? and more importantly what formula are you using to ascertain your equity in a tournament? clearly the result describes your chance of finishing inside the bubble based on the ratios between your stack, opp stacks and the blinds and the pot odds of a decision will play a roll but i was wondering what other variables there may be and how you do the calculation?
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Re: How bad is that? I hope you thanked him very nicely for his generosity.
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Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player
As was mentioned by someone, i clearly misunderstood the term cooler. i didnt understand it was a bubble spot with equal payouts and i was applying my thoughts to a general tournament situation. (cooler as in the double or nothing sngs yea?)In light of my new understanding of the term cooler it is a clear fold.If his range is AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK and you know that this is his range, then it is a simple, no brainer fold!! If you fold, then you have 68.541% equity in the tournament with your 1931 chips. If you call and win, then you have 96.38% equity in the tournament with your 5338 chips. If you call and split the pot, you have 78.803% equity in the tournament with your 2669 chips. If you call and lose, then you are out and have 0% equity in the tournament. If you call, then your expectation against his range is: 60.55% of the time you win and have 96.38% equity 4.1% of the time you split the pot and have 78.803% equity 35.35% of the time you lose and have 0% equity. So your expectation is (.6055 x .9638) + (.041 x .78803) + (.3535 x 0) = 61.589% equity. Now your choice is simple: Fold and have 68.541% equity Call for an expectation of 61.589% equity. Your KK against a range of JJ+,AKs, Ako is a massive massive massive fold -
Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player You must call. First of all his range is bigger then AA only. You mentioned he did it with QQ and im sure he's capable of similar plays with AK and JJ or even TT. The main reasons you are calling is that your M is 9 to start the hand so you are looking for a hand to make a move with and you have put 1/4 of your stack into the pot. i would not fold AK QQ or KK here. even JJ or TT would be hard to fold for me unless theres is some special conisderation. Other reasons are that his m is 10 so he should be looking for a spot to make a move and he could perceive your raise as an attack on the limped pot(being last to act).the fact he is in 3rd position may or may not be overly relevant. Obviously your actions of late could have an influence also: If you had raised and folded to a reraise recently or been stealing alot of pots then he may have cause to feel his fold equity is substantial with the move. edit* 6 is bubble yea? what is prize payouts? if this is 100k for 6 and up then maybe you can fold but in lower stakes weaker tournys you simply don't have to make such exceptional laydowns. A little maths: if you fold your stack is 1931, if you call and lose your stack is 0, if you call and win your stack is 5338. you are 62.031% against a range of AA,QQ,KK,JJ,AK(remember that there are 2 kings in your hand)I think this is a very reasonable range(perhaps even conservative) So if you call your expectation is to finish the hand with 3311.215. In fact if his range is only AA KK and QQ you MUST call. REEDIT* i think the reason not to shove is because (although you are getting pretty needy for some spots) you WANT either a call or for someone to make a move.If he has made a move with QQ again or JJ or AK then this is a fantastic result for you. What is his PR(preflop raise%: VP(%occasions where he voluntarily puts money into the pot) ratio? if his PR is very low then his range is probably quite wide.
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Re: Cooler, xx on Button your M is 10 the sb's is nearly 14 and the bb has 7 after posting blind. neither of them is too desperate so i would 100% jam with any s-c hand from your position,and there are plenty. Depending on my recent image(have you stolen any pots lately? shown down any garbage cards in raised pots?) and what i have seen from these 2 particular opponents since arriving at this table i might make the push with any 2 cards. The most important thing is to go ALLIN!! Because any smaller bet will commit you and your opposition to the pot so just jam it and extract the max folding equity by cutting fof thier pot odds. Do you have tracker?(or similar) if the bb had a vp under 15 and the sb under 20 id happily smash my stack in with any 2 assuming i wasnt viewed as a maniac prior.
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Re: Good fold bad fold i think the fold is fine. its reasonable to think you may have been behind on the flop and the board just got worse from there. in fact its just about every card you didnt want o see in a multiway pot turned up! I would have folded i think. Just the pf call which is bad.
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Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...
There is plenty of strategic thought to the river call. In fact he has to call: there are very few hands that beat him that the betting reasonably accounts for and the pot odds are terrific.It's a very easy call in my opinion.This is a horrible spot. In this unraised pot you could be up against trips, a straight, bigger two (unlikliest) or a busted flush draw. Almost impossible you work out - I don't get involved on the flop to be honest and wouldn't have this dilemma. With 60 in the pot and another 25 to you I suppose you have to call and pray. Like I say there is no real strategic thought behind a call, you could be facing any of the above.
I'm not trying to beat on you but: Checking bb is clearly correct. On the flop betting the pot is a very bad play! He is out of position with a marginal hand that may win at a showdown, getting to the showdown cheaply would be optimal.If he bets all the hands he is beating will call or raise and other then the flush draw theres not really a weaker hand that will call,he also opens the door for someone to take him off the pot with nothing or to take him off it with a semibluff on the flush draw and costing him a lot of equity in the process. Furthermore betting wont give him any infomation but check raising gives him plenty and the chance to cause a better hand to fold! How can you have a go at him for checking the turn. The guy has 3bet him on the flop!! what could this mean? the only hand that betting is good for is against a flush draw and if he has one he's already drawn at bad odds! If the guy has an overpair he will bet anyway(he's already shown he loves to overplay it) and if the guy has a set he's going to bet and raise you if you bet.More importantly though is that betting here tells your opponent that you in fact very strong on the flop OR that the 6 improved your hand, why should you offer free infomation. After seeing the turn and river action its obvious that something fishy is going on. There are actually no hands that fit the betting too well. Either he played the nuts ultra aggressively against a blind(i don't think so) or he has had a draw/air the way. Seeing is the draw missed i would definitely be checking to him on river. If he has the nuts(a set is good enough) all the money is going in the middle either way but if hes bluffing or has missed his flush you can only make money on the end by inducing a desperate bluff. If he has 99 TT or 77 he will fold to your river bet anyway because if you bet the river he has to put you on 2 pair or a set. How has he played the hand weakly? He has check raised and called a 3bet on the flop!! that's very strong. He hasn't gone away on the turn, still strength.I'm not saying play was optimal but weak is not the word i'd use to describe my representation of his actions.Notice how his actions actually fit quite a few hands as well unlike the opponent who has not been telling a consistent story at all. In regards to the hand; i would have definitely check-raised the flop because a minbet is just so weak and in online cash a min bet often means either "i have a weak hand that wants to build a possible winning pot but not too much! please let me see the showdown on my terms!" or "i have a draw and would like to see the showdown cheaply whilst extracting value for my hand!please let me get there cheap!" Both of these things are illogical and stupid clearly but that's why only weak players are making that play. I would probably fold to the 3bet(unless i know something about this player) even if it is suspicious just because it is clearly a marginal situation at best to play a weak hand out of position in a rapidly expanding pot without the initiative and im sure i could find better spots to extract money from the table. Once you have hit that turn you are going nowhere unless he check behind,the flush comes and he value bets you. because that's really the only hand your losing to.A set simply would not have 3bet after your check-raise when he's in position for such obvious reasons(assuming he knows what position is!lol!). By the river the call is 100%. Anyone who can fold the river needs to rethink something and perhaps sit down and do a SHAL. bluff(2 unimproved high cards)/busted flush draw(KQ clubs or Ax clubs) for sure, a set just seems too unlikely although you will occassionaly go bust against one in a similar sitch. A strait is almost impossible based on the early open limping and the flop action makes a set seem dubious, the flop doesn't contain any reasonable 2 pair hands and i don't see how a single pair can bet the turn(unless its AA or KK) and they can definitely not bet the river. But i am a :nanaI'm replying to this without reading anything other than the initial post... I'd have raised pre-flop :loon No really. I'd make a standard raise of three and a half times the BB. You're the first one to enter the pot, and the limp just looks to weak. If you're going to play junk hands like this one, you need to try and win the pot and not just limp and hope. A pre-flop raise may have taken the hand down there and then. By limping, you're inviting other players to limp behind you. Plus it makes it very easy for the BB to come over the top of you with a raise. Post-flop, you're far too weak. I know there's merit in the check-raise, but I'm not mad on it in this situation. It seems there was no Small Blind? So there's currently 1.50 in the pot. I'd have bet the pot at this point. Maybe your opponent has a set, but you can't be too worried about that tbh. Perhaps they have an over pair, nines or tens. But I'd have expected them to bet those pre-flop. Its just as likely that they have a couple of over cards or a flush draw and are trying to steal the pot. Why are you checking the turn? What are you waiting for? There's about 21.50 in the pot and you have two pair, but are giving control of the pot to your opponent. I'd have bet half the pot here. What are YOU putting him on at this point? Maybe they do have that set, or perhaps they have something really funky like 35s, then so be it, you can't win 'em all. If they did have the nines or tens then you have them crushed at this point. By the river there's only a few hands you're behind to. The vast majority of the time you'll make money with this hand against those community cards. Its time for a value bet. There's 41.50 in the pot, I'd bet about 18 and call down a reraise. If you go bust, well that's bad luck. Kick the dog and reload. I think you played the hand in a loose-weak manner, which in my mind is a great way to loose money. With the exception of that one check-raise, you never really put your opponent to the test and gave him complete control of how the hand was played. If you play loose, you've got to be aggressive as it sets up a great table image. Your opponents never give you the credit for hitting anything, they just think you're trying it on again. I've called all-ins on the river with hands like this and my opponents have turned over AK. In the long run, that's made me more money than I've lost on the occassions my opponent had the pocket eights. I hope I haven't sounded too critical. :ok -
Small stakes tourny(15k guaranteed 75 entry) 9 handed. 22 players left. im in 7th place bubble is 9. Blinds 200/400 50 ante. 1k starting pot, so m's are easy. Stack are: me(2nd pos) 12k utg 20k hijack 11k cutoff 8k button 8k the rest are 1k-4k. My sample size for VP and PR are small, clearly, about 100-200 hands. UTG with VP 18 PR 15 raises to 1.2k I'm in 2nd position with TT. should I Fold, call, reraise or reraise allin? I dont think calling is a reasonable option. I decided to reraise to 3.6k. My VP is about 8 with my PR being 7. The table folds around to the cutoff(new player at table so no stats) who cold calls my 3.6k. The UTG player then jams it in for 20k. Call or Fold? At this point there is 19.2k in the pot and it costs me 8.4k to call so im getting 2.29:1 pot odds. I also have a player behind me whom has cold called 3.6k after seeing a utg raise followed by a reraise. This works both ways however, as he is certainly going a long way to committing himself/herself to the pot and has shown quite a bit of strength IMO. Im getting 3:1 against 2 opponents if the player behind is 100% calling. TT is a 2:1 dog against a range of jj+ and AK. I think it is correct to call because 1/4 my stack is in the pot and im getting 2.3:1 odds against utg's probable range but in this instance i thought the chance i need to improve is high so i folded. I'm told by a friend of mine(a very strong professional player)that this is an easy call with TT but i disagree.I think its a very tough decision. FYI the cutoff called with KQ and utg flipped over AK the board came JJJJA and they chopped it. Please feel free to comment and criticise. I think i should have probably shoved with my TT instead of reraising to make future decision making simpler(By simpler i mean non-existent)
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Re: Should I be Betting This River Ryan. checking the flop is correct. you have to bet the turn however for a few reasons: firstly: your hand is a strong favourite to be best so you need to start building the pot. a second spade has appeared creating a 2nd flush draw to go with the now enhanced strait draw. you do need to charge these(not overly important), But more importantly you need to extract value from these hands before the cooler on the river. Another reason to bet the turn is that your hand is sufficiently concealed from your flop action so that you can reasonably be called by a weaker hand. As you played it you have to check the river. Your hand isnt very strong, Its only a bluff catcher and allowing yourself to get bluffed off the hand will lose you a massive amount of equity. sorry if i missed something mate and for grammar im 20xing on ftilt ss. EDIT* on river the only hand that pays you off is the case ace. even KK wont pay you off so forget about 2nd pair. also (more directed at tourny players)raising pf with AK is generally correct(+ev) but in deep cash checking bb here with ak is not only a good deceptive play but a play you MUST do from time to time, even against mediocre opponents. you said the players had seen you put in pot size raises attacking limpers earlier, did you show down any mediocre hands(suitcons or garbage pairs etc?) because if you have then raising pf is a clearly optimal play because you are concealed by your past actions.
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Re: Folding Pocket Queens pre-flop? If i'm deep in cash games online and i get 3bet from an early position opponent i almost always fold queens.i'd need special circumstances to make the call. As in 1st 2nd or 3rd pos standard raise i reraise 2/3pot or more and he puts in a third big raise, those queens just go in the muck, he almost certainly has aces or kings(and aces far more likely).
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Dealer: You have been dealt [Qd Qs] Dealer: russdigga folds Dealer: steve45r folds Dealer: akeuse95 folds Dealer: reed0112 calls $0.50 Dealer: christianCJ folds Dealer: GoAngels1 checks Dealer: dezys dad folds Dealer: kontra02 folds Dealer: An Infidel raises to $2.25 Dealer: reed0112 calls $1.75 Dealer: GoAngels1 folds Dealer: The flop is [4d Jc 7c] Dealer: An Infidel bets $5 Dealer: reed0112 has 15 seconds left to act Dealer: reed0112 calls $5 Dealer: The turn is [6s] Dealer: An Infidel checks Dealer: reed0112 bets $20 Dealer: An Infidel raises to $40 Dealer: reed0112 calls $14.70, and is all in Dealer: An Infidel shows [Qd Qs] Dealer: reed0112 shows [3s 5h] Dealer: Uncalled bet of $5.30 returned to An Infidel Dealer: The river is [Qh] Dealer: An Infidel shows three of a kind, Queens Dealer: reed0112 shows a straight, Seven high Dealer: reed0112 wins the pot ($81.65) with a straight, Seven high For context: he has about 100bb at start of hand(as can be seen) and i have little infomation on him as of yet.I am the BB.
online Cash game KK cutoff
in Poker
Posted
Re: online Cash game KK cutoff
I didn't intend to sound arrogant and i'm sure many players who responded are successful cash game players. I was just alarmed at many people who seemed to suggest that this was an autocall, as though kings can never be folded preflop properly for cash, clearly a misguided response. My use of deepstack is to emphasise that this is not a tournament, and definately not a low M situation. Also i know of plenty of people who play regular cash games with 40BB and 50BB starting stacks(something which changes the dynamics of this decision obviously), in fact my local casino's two lowest limit tables are both fixed 40BB buyins!! Also there seemed to be alot of tournament orientated answers that sounded like people who havn't played cash games. E.G "Shoves like this normally indicate AK not AA". I don't think i've ever seen someone shoveoff for 100+BB with AK in a cash game(or even a tourny lol).