Timeform V Racing Post

[mowgli77]

I've been at York races all week and got a Racing Post every day but decided to also get a timeform racecard on the Thursday. They charge £6 for their racecards and to be honest it has less information in it than the racecards you can buy on course for £2.50. Only 1 of the timform top rated horses actually won but it was a short price favourite (Wootton Bassett) and I felt the actual write ups for each horse were lacking in information. How can they justify £6 for their racecard? Do they actually think that their opinion is that superior to all the information available on the internet such as Sporting Life, Racing Post or Attheraces? I would rather pay £7.50 a month to access the Racing Post data where I can check back through a horses breeding and pedigree, see previous quotes, sales data, lifetime form, than pay through the nose for Timeforms opinions. I know Ginge uses Timeform as his bible so would definitely welcome his input here. Is there anything you are paying for with Timeform that you can not access elsewhere? The RP site has an analysis after every race from their own form judges/analysts etc and I don't mind paying for that and access to a lifetime database. I always thought I was doing well to get it for free when they did not charge. I don't really know how Timeform can justify what they charge and feel their racecards are not value for money. Can not comment on their form books as I would never pay that much for one. Anyone else used Timeform, what did you think?

[Blair Boy]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post Bought the Black Book last year once during the jumps season, Had a read through several times and found the information to be nothing different from what is widely available, mainly paying for their comments and of course ratings.

[BillyHills]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post Years ago Phil i used to get the Timeform black book which i thought was good, dont bother now days as already said you can get it elsewhere free. Obviously they can charge £6 for their ratings which some think are gospel, i reckon they rely on those who have followed them pre-internet days and the likes of Ginge who is a great advert for the company. I believe if you think alike to a certain race reader then you are best to follow that person, no doubt the race readers have changed at timeform since i used to buy them and may not agree with their interpretation of the form, some may prefer raceform for example and some like following the columns in the Racing Post.

[Trotter]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post In the olden days.........pre-internet.........i used to buy a Black Book towards the end of the season so you'd get a note and rating for every horse that had run that season The main thing about the Black Books was that they were arranged by Horse not by race..........you could buy annual form books like the Haig Annual or Raceform Annual, but they were arranged by race.........it was a lot of work to suss out one horse's best going, trip etc With all the information available on the internet now I don't see much point in buying any printed material...........it's always going to be out of date by the time you see it Also.........I think there's a lot to be said for sticking to reading the form and not paying much attention to other peoples opinions, tho' thats quite hard to do. It's easy to be swayed by Authority represented by the likes of timeform or the racing post race analysis and spotlight opinions etc But they are only someone's opinion...........

[mowgli77]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post I bought the raceform annual the other year and it was just what is on the racing post site but in a book format and actually takes longer to find all the previous races/form than online. Also, like has been mentioned the form book is last years racing so you have a book that has the form of a 2 yr old that is now 3 yr old, has run several races but is already out of date and the previous form is also available online. The one thing missing from RP online is the "racechecker" that appears in the paper and shows how many winners, places and unplaced horses have come from that particular race. A very good feature when assessing form. Fin mentioned the formscan feature on the ATR website but I'm surprised RP don't have something similar. Timeform seem more interested in describing if a colt is leggy, scopey, long etc than actually how it ran.

[Trotter]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post

Timeform seem more interested in describing if a colt is leggy' date=' scopey, long etc than actually how it ran.[/quote'] That is something I would like to see on the RP site I used to buy a weekly publication - Raceform Update - which had the previous weeks results in a pull-out in Raceform style........they used to give brief desription of every horse making it's debut. Like you say - lengthy, scopey, unfurnished etc........... I reckon this is the main thing that Timeform has that isn't readily available elsewhere. It's quite informative to know a horse's physical make up - it's a big factor in how good they are and how they might run. Mordin does a good job at racehorse description in his weekly online column, but typically he only deals with top class races and only 7 or 8 races a week I'd love the RP to have descriptions of sprint handicappers just to let me know if they're big or small. That would be a good start ! I reckon Timeform scores heavily on that one !

[fintron]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post

Timeform seem more interested in describing if a colt is leggy, scopey, long etc than actually how it ran.

Yeah agree with that. I think there are so many factors to look for in handicap races, if you start looking at the physical characteristics of horses you end up talking yourself out of bets. Its probably different for maiden punters but i dont like them, with too many short priced favs winning. I agree that the Racing Post has everything you need for £7.50. They give the full form comment such as "broke smarlty, crossed over to lead, pushed along 2f out, stayed on one paced" etc and that provides a good framework for study which can be enhanced by watching the free replays on ATR and Sporting Life. Timeform are charging people for their opinions but if a few thousand others have been given the same info then its probably harder to form your own independent opinion than if you watched the race with your own eyes - as that interpretation is exclusive to yourself. You also have to take into account the costs of paying for timeform, as that inevitable eats into profits. Sometimes the form comments on the websites seem wrong, I have seen horses described as weakening close home but having watched the race I have felt they have been one paced, and infact marked them up if they were up in trip next time out so it always helps to watch the race yourself if you have time.

[TheRat]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post Can I post notes on every horse on Racing Post and it will save it for £7.50?

[Trotter]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post

Can I post notes on every horse on Racing Post and it will save it for £7.50?

You can do that without paying the £7-50 ! As long as you're logged in you can save notes on each horses form page, save notes on each race result page and save your own ratings on the results page (which then show up on the horses form page instead of RPR) I never joined the Members Club but I keep speed ratings and notes on horses on the RP site !

[TheRat]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post

You can do that without paying the £7-50 ! As long as you're logged in you can save notes on each horses form page, save notes on each race result page and save your own ratings on the results page (which then show up on the horses form page instead of RPR) I never joined the Members Club but I keep speed ratings and notes on horses on the RP site !

Oh, nice one!

[Gingertipster]

Re: Timeform V Racing Post

Watching every race yourself and making notes on every runner is impossible. Everyone, needs a good information provider. Occasions when I've got a £2.50 racecard (when Racing Post has sold out), found it inaccurate with very little valuable information. You could not make a worthwhile evaluation of the horses chance. £6 might seem expensive, but if you compare write ups with prices; it's far easier to find the value bet / bets. Therefore, although it is not the best Timeform product (can get them cheaper through the internet), it's far better value than a £2.50 racecard. Judging anything by one day's results is impossible. Timeform's “top rated” is seen by many as the “tip”, when it is definitely not. They don't give a “tip”, allowing you to come to your own conclusions. Taking in to account distance, ground, draw, track, jockey, trainer, temperament, overall rating, recent form ratings, old form, VALUE etc. Just because Timeform's top rated won one race on the card, does not mean their information was wrong. I had bets in three races on the day in question. Using Timeform's other products and my own knowledge, winning two races and each way second in the other. Wootten Bassett @ 5/2, very early, before a big market move made him so short. Hooray @ 18/1, again before a market move (sadly not my main bet in the race). And Snow Fairy each way @ 7/2 who once more shortened before the off. Don't know if Timeform believe their information is better than any other provider, but I certainly do. Just because other providers talk about the same things, does not make them as accurate. I take it Mowgli, you bought the £6 racecard on course? If so, the information on it has already been used by subscribers. So those with a good write up are less likely to be value just before racing, than at early prices. So at that time, it may be best to look for value amongst the less well rated. Information given on places like ATR and Sporting Life are not the total Timeform product. It's a basic abbreviation of their opinion and the 1,2,3 gives no account of value (essential in profit making) so isn't worth anything. I rarely get a Timeform racecard, but their “Perspective” comments on Sariska made me question her temperament, particularly after hospitalising her trainer; though never expected what happened. Would she get there and find nothing? Coronation Cup “barely off the bridle to get upsides” (yet finished 2^nd), and Middleton Stakes “idling / tiring slightly” (looked likely to win easily at one stage, 1^st). Sariska top rated 133 by 1 lb, over Midday 132, Snow Fairy still improving on 130. All well ahead of the average (5 year) race winning performance rating of 128. Although Sariska did have some positive attributes, I made her a poor value price, despite being “top rated”. Timeform annuals, “Racehorses” and “Chasers & Hurdlers” aren't known as the “Racing Bible” for nothing. They give an invaluable account of the season just gone. Both as a historical book and form book. Used correctly, pinpoints those likely to improve. As I did, finding well-handicapped horses when compiling my “stable” in Billy's “non-competition”. I am constantly referring to last years form book to find out about likely going and distance preferences. “Form” being form, is always “out of date” yet relevant at the same time. It's relatively easy to look back at previous facts to find things out about the (likely) future. Essays on the best horses, up to 10 pages long; down to a few lines on a class 6 handicapper. Giving their assessment on things like future distance and going requirements, temperament issues, how likely to improve / train on, size and breeding. Just looking at parentage might look as if a horse will be good at a mile, but when it struggles to settle, might not get eight furlongs. Similarly, one who settles well and possibly lethargic in preliminaries might stay further than parentage suggests. If a punter looks at breeding without taking temperament in to consideration, he might come to the wrong conclusions. Some years it is difficult to gain enthusiasm for the new season, until reading Timeform's annual. Can't recommend them highly enough. If a punter can't afford the price of these annuals, he could just buy the Final Issue of the Black Book £22, although it is nowhere near as good a read and some ratings are a little inflated. Suppose the question is: Can a punter work out an accurate tissue (or assessment of each horses chance) by using the data of each product? A £2.50 racecard is not good enough, but I don't think that is what it caters for. Really only for the casual racegoer, who's more interested in a good day out than making a profit. Not used the racing post website that much (I don't pay for any info), so can't really compare with any certainty. Can only speak for myself, but from what I've seen on it (and newspaper) take me an awful lot longer to gain a competitive edge. Most professional gamblers use Timeform. Think that says a lot for their products. Though doubt if many bother with a race card. Most get either Computer Timeform or Perspective. Any form book is only as good as the person using it, if a punter is not able to evaluate the data, he/she will not do it justice / make a profit. A good way of finding out how to use a Timeform race card is to look at it afterwards, compare each write up with SP's and consider why each horse was that price.