Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

[billy the punter]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

POST FROM MY STAKINGS THREAD, PLEASE DO NOT SPOIL AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE HAND PLAYED OUT, STILL ANSWER HONESTLY....... 11 left in a 37 man £15+£15 live tourney 8 paid (£40 for 8th up to £390 for winner) I have 77 on BB 6 players on my table with blinds of 1k/2k and i have 30k (ave 33k) 2 players have around 15-20k 3 players have 30-40k so all fairly event 3 flat callers to my bb so 8k pot before my action. What do you do here and why?

I haven't read the replies yet, it really depends on where the limpers were. How early was the first? I've been caught so many times pushing in this exact spot, by someone slow playing aces or someone playing 88 or 99 poorly/passively. It's marginal (between check or shove), for me it depends on previous action. Was there a lot of limp-folding? How were you percieved? Is the next level 2/4k? How long away is the next level?

[billy the punter]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Only a tiny % of players will move all in first to act with a set. However that doesn't mean you are in front. He could have 88. The player behind could also have you beat. This is a horrible spot. Once you've raised 5k and are left with 14 bigs I'm not sure you can fold on a 6-high flop? By calling the player behind should pass 88/99 though. As played I think you probably have to call. If the SB has trip or two pair he has played it well on the flop.

[billy the punter]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Pretty much with Punterspal said above. I don't see what you can really expect your 7s to be beating on that board, unless someone is playing pure air or is playing a draw or a donk that is holding AKs and has missed and decided to try and steal. Three players have called your 5k raise, you've got a assume at least one of them is holding. It's a nightmare board, you have an over pair but it's very low. Walk away there will be a better spot.

0% chance of AK - why would he steal now and not preflop? 0% chance of air But there are other hands you are beating here. 65x, 64x, A6x, 55, 44 are all possibilities. Don't forget the SB had value to call once it got back round to him preflop. Which is why I personally don't like the 5k raise. Of course 77 may be behind. But there are other hands you can beat other than the two unlikely ones you mention.

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Its an instant fold to anyone with tiny knowledge of the game..

Unbelievably harsh. This thread has caused a lot of debate which suggests it's not as clear cut as you must think.

To CALL of all your chips with 77 on a 2 3 6 board with 3 preflop callers to your raise is nothing more than ridiculous!

When you raise with 77 preflop - what board would you dream of? I'd say this is quite close to a perfect board for 7's after raising preflop with them. Even checking with 7's pre-flop (which is what you would do, right?), you see a 6 high rainbow flop, surely it's a great flop?

2 callers could easilly have made a set of 2's, 3's or 6's losing to all pairs 8'S to A's

Why would anyone in their right minds shove with sets here? that is utterly ridiculous. Very few players would play QQ-AA like that, and if they have, their bad play is going to get rewarded. Simple as.

There is 10 hands that are beating you straight out that could easilly be in one of the other guys hand, some sicko could even be in there with 45 for the nuts

I think you can rule out sets and AA-QQ, so that, imo, is 4 possible hands that are beating you here. I'd take the chance, especially in Circus Casino in newcastle in a £30 game!!

Its that old question...... WHAT ARE YOU BEATING???

AK-A10, KQ-KJ, A6,K6,J6(one of which I'm putting villain on here)

Its not like it is even a tough decision.. Its an insta fold

How can you say that? :unsure You've got an overpair to the rainbow board. Of course it's a tough decision with only 14 BB's remaining. I'm calling all day long as I want to win the tournament and not min-cash, and because I'm putting villain on A6 here. It's always easier to know the correct move when you've already seen the outcome, punterspal.

[billy the punter]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Im not saying the guy who shoved has a set' date=' The poster raised to 5k preflop and got [b']3 callers There is still 2 people to act after him and any one of those 2 could be in with 2's, 3's or 6's and any pairs 8's to A's Im not worried about the shove from the SB im worried about what the 2 people behind me called 5k with preflop easy fold, the good players fold here the poor ones call and moan how they got unlucky after they ran into a higher pair or a set :ok

No one is going to be playing a big pair like that in my opinion. AND, your call should get those behind to pass 88/99. Like I said above. :ok

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Geordiegaz i dont know if you know that there is still 2 players to act after you.. both of which have called a 5k preflop raise If you do and you still call then im guesing you dont win much as it is such a poor call its embarrassing really.. "playing to win" is a term used by poor poker players to excuse poor play! Playing to win mrenas doing the correct thing not just calling off all your chips with 77 on a 6 high flop when 2 people still have to act behind you

if someone has hit a set then so be it. unlucky, move on! like I said earlier, punterspal, it's real easy to judge a play when you have seen the outcome. If morlspin had called here and the guy had A6 then no doubt you'd be saying easy call!!

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it When the small blind shoves, theres myself and 1 other to act, not 2 other players as punterspal states:ok

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Ok..... I actually raised 5k here and got rid of a caller. so 3 players see a flop of 6 3 2 Rainbow. You get an all in from the small blind What do you do

make your mind' date=' up you said you had 77 on the BB and you raised to 5k and got 3 callers?[/quote'] 3 player see a flop, me included .....read the thread yeah.....

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it This thread has not been edited in anyway. An admin or Paul can confirm I made the mistake in the other thread regarding the final action which i will post up here later to allow the discussion to continue. This has now been pointed out there. Both threads however do show there were 3 flat calls, i raised it 5k and got 2 calls....leaving 3 in the hand. With all your posts in here Punterspal, you come across like your one of the greatest players ever, do you have any results to back it up? Not having a go, just genuinely interested after reading your posts.

[billy the punter]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I didn't know the result until now, but from what I can make out, the TT play is terrible.

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

With all your posts in here Punterspal' date=' you come across like your one of the greatest players ever, do you have any results to back it up? Not having a go, just genuinely interested after reading your posts.[/quote'] He's not just the greatest poker player around, he's also the greatest sports tipster around. But it's ok, fear not - he's here to teach everyone the error of their ways Behold, our saviour is among us. The financial future of Loungers young and old is safe. Follow the doctrine of punterspal2010 and thee shall be rewarded :notworthy I have so far been unable to ascertain whether he is indeed a money making deity, or just a sanctimonious cock. Enquiries are ongoing

[Jammy]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Without getting too embroiled in the debate i think this is definitely a shove pre. We are often picking up a decent pot given stack sizes completely uncontested. If we do get a caller and they have limped Aces then that's 'good game' i guess. Otherwise we may be racing however i think people rarely limp in this spot with big hands of the ilk of AK and AQ etc. If we are racing then we have a very decent chance to double up anyway and it isn't a disaster. I am pretty sure a shove pre-flop here is definitely +EV as we pick up this pot uncontested a whole lot.

[AJ]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

He's not just the greatest poker player around, he's also the greatest sports tipster around. But it's ok, fear not - he's here to teach everyone the error of their ways Behold, our saviour is among us. The financial future of Loungers young and old is safe. Follow the doctrine of punterspal2010 and thee shall be rewarded :notworthy I have so far been unable to ascertain whether he is indeed a money making deity, or just a sanctimonious cock. Enquiries are ongoing

Fantastic eh? Lets all bash the newbie. Regardless of the rights and wrong of this thread and i misread it the same way as him everything else he has done in the short time he's been with us has been excellent. His sports betting looks pretty solid, so lets cut the guy some slack

[bobthebuilder]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Fantastic eh? Lets all bash the newbie. Regardless of the rights and wrong of this thread and i misread it the same way as him everything else he has done in the short time he's been with us has been excellent. His sports betting looks pretty solid, so lets cut the guy some slack

Agree that he seems to be a very knowledgeable guy, but the arrogance is not needed when someone is asking for constructive critisism.

[Spooner]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Agree that he seems to be a very knowledgeable guy' date=' but the arrogance is not needed when someone is asking for constructive critisism.[/quote']Nail head....

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Not getting involved in the debate....... but fwiw, I am shoving pre flop.

[billy the punter]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Ok, don't really know punterspal as I don't think he posts much in the racing section. But what I will say is with this type of thread the actual result should be irrelevant (I know some forums where the results of strategy posts is forbidden). Just because someone called in behind with TT this time doesn't mean it was an incorrect play. No one has mentioned that the third player cannot overcall light, a lot of the time he will pass a slightly better hand once there are two all-ins in front. A lot of the time, in this exact scenario, you will only have to beat one player (the SB).

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I know I said above I wasn't getting involved in a debate, but having read back through the thread and viewing all the differing opinions, I don't think this is a clear fold, or indeed a clear shove. I reckon it is one of these that different players, play diferent ways and there is no right and wrong. Bearing that in mind, I believe punterspal could have showed a much better attitude about the way he was saying things.

Fantastic eh? Lets all bash the newbie. Regardless of the rights and wrong of this thread and i misread it the same way as him everything else he has done in the short time he's been with us has been excellent. His sports betting looks pretty solid, so lets cut the guy some slack

When quoting Morls in the staking section

Here you say YOU shoved yet you post in the hand theory thread that the SB shoved?? Please make up your mind and stop changing the hand details to suit yourself to make up for the fact you played dreadful

When quoting Morls here

You have changed it this isnt what you posted in the original thread where i commented which made you do this thread youve changed it about 3 times, do you know what happened in the hand??? Your original post in the other thread you said you had 3 limpers and 77 in the BB, you raised to 5k and got 3 callers flop came 2 3 6 and YOU shoved all in and got called off 10 10 so make your mind up and stop changing tha hand details to suit yourself

Its an instant fold to anyone with tiny knowledge of the game.. To CALL of all your chips with 77 on a 2 3 6 board with 3 preflop callers to your raise is nothing more than ridiculous! From what i can gather if you have raised and got 3 callers preflop and the SB has shoved then there still must be 2 people to act after you which makes it an insta fold all day long!!

This is a total lack of respect for anyone in this thread, who have played for years and at a decent level. Sure, he may be right, but equally he may be wrong, still has to listen and respect other opinions without having the need to ridicule other answers. Fcuk, Id hate form him to go through some of the calls I have made in other strat threads. With regards to your "lets all bash the newbie" comment, I can certainly see where they are coming from, if they are indeed bashing. Manners cost absolutely nothing, and there are 2 ways of getting a point across here. 1)In a polite, non argumentative manner or 2) Just be an arrogant, pompous cock about things, and I am sorry (well, not really), but punterspal, certainly acted more like the latter here. Let's keep the strategy requests/criticisms constructive eh?

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Let me just clear things up...... this hand was posted by morspin in the other staking thread and he said he was in the BB with 77, 3 limpers and he made it 5k to go and got 2 callers the flop comes 2,3,6 and HE shoved all in, now with 2 players still to act this blind shove with just 7s when you have no idea what the 2 people have called a preflop raise with is pretty poor play IMHO now in this thread he is saying the SB shoved all in on a 2,3,6 flop which is a completly different hand scenario altogether.

Opinions and justifications for those opinions were what Morslpin was seeking. Your opinion is as valid as all opinions, and I like reading the Strat section to see how different people would play the same situation. It was the way you delivered that opinion, but....

I didnt mean to offend anyone and sometimes things written dont come across as the way they are intended!

I can accept that. My first impression of you was more a collective impression, after reading posts by you in this thread, Morlspin's staking thread, the sports-punter thread, the rolo bars thread, and the Arsenal thread. Five different threads and you came across as, frankly, a dick, in all of them. But again, I can accept...

I would never intentionally set out to offend anyone' date=' Maybe i do come across as arrogant some of the time but i come back to he point that sometimes things writen and not spoken dont come across as the way they are intended[/quote'] just five different threads, four different subjects seemed pretty damning - imo. Good. Tell us about your experiences, share your thoughts on strategy - I am interested in hearing. Genuinely. Always interested in reading the thoughts of better players than I. ?? :unsure I hope you are a 'money making god' - so long as you're sharing then we'll all benefit :ok

[happyhornet]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Maybe I am wrong (I often am;)) but although there are a lot of hands out there that beat Graeme, many of those would not prompt the SB to shove. If he has a set or a big pair (so to speak), surely he would check to the pre-flop raiser and come over the top to elicit more value. By shoving from the SB I think it is reasonable to put him on a beatable hand such as 44, 55, 65s, 76s, A6s, or a big Ace. It appears that he doesn't want a call. As such the call with 77 is feasibly only behind pocket 8's-10's in his range. I'm not saying I would have called, I think I would have passed (I am a coward:lol), but if Graeme was going for the win, then it doesn't appear to me to be the terrible call that some are saying.

[BAM]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I think punterspal2010 is getting mixed up between the two threads, as he knows what happened post flop (as I do now :eyes) and it is a questionable shove post flop. In this OP morls is asking what would we do pre - I said shove all day and even though I have seen the result I still would stick by that as you have too many limpers to see any great flop with 77 and any 'decent' raise will commit nearly 50% of your stack anyway and a shove in this position will get all but the best hands to lay down most of the time. If you have a slow playing monster lurking then so be it but it is not usual for your average £15 tourney player to try this play. I agree the post flop shove is not good but the action pre flop maybe could have avoided this. As for punterpal's arrogance and attitude and 'bash the newbie' comments, isn't this the norm in strat as our ego's cannot accept different opinions ;). I'm not sure what happened in 2007 but I'm sure poker moved on a few levels.

[JulioArca]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

POST FROM MY STAKINGS THREAD, PLEASE DO NOT SPOIL AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE HAND PLAYED OUT, STILL ANSWER HONESTLY....... 11 left in a 37 man £15+£15 live tourney 8 paid (£40 for 8th up to £390 for winner) I have 77 on BB 6 players on my table with blinds of 1k/2k and i have 30k (ave 33k) 2 players have around 15-20k 3 players have 30-40k so all fairly event 3 flat callers to my bb so 8k pot before my action. What do you do here and why?

Arrived at this thread late but it seems to be provoking some heated debate. My first thought would be to check and hope to hit a set if it was early in the tournament. Its getting close to the bubble and probably late in the evening so I would probably be more aggressive than that. I want to win the pot so a raise is the only option here, 5k to win 13k is giving reasonable odds which only improve once the first guy calls. Clearly (2.5x BigBlind) may not take this pot down so lets bump it up to a pot sized raise. You now have a third of your stack in the middle. This gives you a decision to make if you see a flop but I think less chance of making that decision than with the smaller bet. If you are confident in your post flop play its an option, otherwise it's a shove pre-flop.

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I made the call here, with my mindset being that she was on a weak ace from the beginning. I had her on either A6, A3 or A2 which is why i made the call. She then turns over pocket 10's to my complete suprise. Firstly, she only flat called my BB with 2 other limpers to it, and then when i make the 5k raise, and get 1 caller, she only calls too, surely with a hand like 10's she should reshove here which is why i never put her on a strong pair. Maybe i did play it badly and should have shoved preflop, but im 99% positive she would have made the call anyway, and it would have the same outcome.

[JulioArca]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

I made the call here, with my mindset being that she was on a weak ace from the beginning.

A vital piece of information missed out here - you never said it was a woman :lol:tongue2:tongue2:tongue2

She then turns over pocket 10's to my complete suprise.

Really - you were that surprised! :tongue2

Maybe i did play it badly and should have shoved preflop, but im 99% positive she would have made the call anyway, and it would have the same outcome.

I agree.