Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

[morlspin]

POST FROM MY STAKINGS THREAD, PLEASE DO NOT SPOIL AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE HAND PLAYED OUT, STILL ANSWER HONESTLY....... 11 left in a 37 man £15+£15 live tourney 8 paid (£40 for 8th up to £390 for winner) I have 77 on BB 6 players on my table with blinds of 1k/2k and i have 30k (ave 33k) 2 players have around 15-20k 3 players have 30-40k so all fairly event 3 flat callers to my bb so 8k pot before my action. What do you do here and why?

[The Quiet Man]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Well 2 choices....check and fold if you miss or SHOVE if you want to hopefully get rid of the limpers!:ok Me?...I'm shoving!:ok I'm guessing you checked and hit the set but still lost? (off to check thread) TQM

[AJ]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Shove. You add 25% to your stack and buy a lot of time. You need a monster to call and unless someone is slow playing you'd have expected a raise from them

[GaF]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

11 left in a 37 man £15+£15 live tourney 8 paid (£40 for 8th up to £390 for winner)

That doesnt add up :unsure 37x£15=£555 total prize pool - 1st gets £390, 8th gets £40, the other 6 are only left with £125 between then :unsure Was there some kind of added value, or a guarantee? Is "+£15" the rake? :loon or some kind of add on/rebuy or something? :unsure

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

That doesnt add up :unsure 37x£15=£555 total prize pool - 1st gets £390, 8th gets £40, the other 6 are only left with £125 between then :unsure Was there some kind of added value, or a guarantee? Is "+£15" the rake? :loon or some kind of add on/rebuy or something? :unsure

You can take a second lot of chips for £15

[GaF]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I think I check here and play for set value - a shove looks too much like a squeeze and could be called relatively lightly and then we could be racing for our tournament life (or worse) ... though AJs "Shove and increase stack by 25%" is pretty persuasive :unsure - though a 15xBB raise all in is pretty big :unsure You are out of position though, so an immediate shove negates that problem - though set mining wont often give you tough decisions post flop, so position perhaps not so important.

[BAM]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Obv shove all day long

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

That doesnt add up :unsure 37x£15=£555 total prize pool - 1st gets £390, 8th gets £40, the other 6 are only left with £125 between then :unsure Was there some kind of added value, or a guarantee? Is "+£15" the rake? :loon or some kind of add on/rebuy or something? :unsure

You can take a second lot of chips for £15

Thats right its a £15+3 buy in, with either 1 rebuy or addon so max £33 spend which was getting 90 runners a while back, now less than 40:sad

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

POST FROM MY STAKINGS THREAD, PLEASE DO NOT SPOIL AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE HAND PLAYED OUT, STILL ANSWER HONESTLY....... 11 left in a 37 man £15+£15 live tourney 8 paid (£40 for 8th up to £390 for winner) I have 77 on BB 6 players on my table with blinds of 1k/2k and i have 30k (ave 33k) 2 players have around 15-20k 3 players have 30-40k so all fairly event 3 flat callers to my bb so 8k pot before my action. What do you do here and why?

Haven't read the remainder of the thread yet. First thoughts, £15+£15 live tourney?!?! As in 100% rake? I think a shove is fine with 15BBs here, guessing the structure is pretty fast. With all the dead money in the pot you should be happy to get called by one guy with overcards. Obv if you think someone might be limp/re-raising then checking is best. In order to check here, I probably need 25+BBs. Raising (not all in) is the only option that isn't an option.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I've posted a little more below now that I've read the other thread (in white text so not to spoil for those who don't know what happened) The reason I said in the above post the option that wasn't an option is to raise smaller than all in is that you put in (in this case) nearly 25% of your stack, and you're going to have to give up on most flops. You're almost never going to win pre-flop against 3 (presumably not very good opponents), you're going to have to check fold tons of flops, and you're still not going to be ahead tons when you think you like the flop. Obv in this case, you're probably getting the money in someway or the other, but the guy isn't always gonna have an overpair, and you miss out on the dead money on most occassions by not shoving, or miss out on the chance to set mine by not checking.

[glceud]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Raising (not all in) is the only option that isn't an option.

Thers no such thing as "not an option". If you just want to play race poker fair enough but if you think you can take the pot down uncontested with a smaller raise then do it. You get the right flop(9 high or the likes) and you win it with your shove on flop. A lot depends how well you know the field and how comfortable you are with your own ability compared with the others. Personally I'm either shoving and praying or checking and praying depending on how much the cash end of the tourney means to me, which is of course obviously wrong.

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Own Morlspin's Live Action! = 7 Events in 11 weeks = SOLD OUT

Check and see a free flop here is the correct move..

Anyone of those 3 could have limped big, and the shove all in on the flop after getting 2 preflop calls is prety poor play. You may think the way you played it is pretty standard but you wouldnt see and of the top tourny players in the world play it like this and there is a reason why they wouldnt play it like that.... Just my opinion

***POST MOVED FROM THE STAKING THREAD - HAVE HIGHLIGHTED IN BLUE AS TO NOT SPOIL IT FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW THE OUTCOME*** I'm very interested in your view of this punters. I agree to a certain extent that a check pre-flop may be the way forward here (or maybe a bigger raise?), however after seeing a 6 high rainbow flop, surely 9 times out of 10 all the money is going in regardless? especially with only 11 BB's remaining. I'm very honest with morlspin, if I think he's played a hand particularly badly I'll tell him and he's the same with me. However, in this situation, I deffo don't think it's "pretty poor play", I think it's as you say "standard". :ok

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Ok..... I actually raised 5k here and got rid of a caller. so 3 players see a flop of 6 3 2 Rainbow. You get an all in from the small blind What do you do

[averick]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I would either shove or check here. If I know that the limpers wouldn't limp with a good hand, plus feel they would shove to a 15 BB shove, then shoving would be the better option otherwise checking and playing fit or fold is fine too. It also depends on when the blinds are increasing, I also assume there's no ante?

[averick]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Ok..... I actually raised 5k here and got rid of a caller. so 3 players see a flop of 6 3 2 Rainbow. You get an all in from the small blind What do you do

Pot size is ~23k right? Would depend on my read on the player here, also how much does he shove for?

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Sorry, shoves around 30k, just a little bit more than me

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Morls When you raise, roughly what % chance are you expecting that they all fold? Would you call if one of the opponents shoved all in pre-flop after your raise? And, if called, what flop would you happy to see?

[morlspin]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Well it was final table bubble and i felt that id get rid of 2 maybe 3 from the hand, then see where i was on the flop. The table has been very limp raise fold for the last 40 mins and if i hit the flop not only do i get a decent pot, i give myself a chance of winning the whole event if i double up

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Well it was final table bubble and i felt that id get rid of 2 maybe 3 from the hand, then see where i was on the flop. The table has been very limp raise fold for the last 40 mins and if i hit the flop not only do i get a decent pot, i give myself a chance of winning the whole event if i double up

So to answer my questions...

[glceud]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Ok..... I actually raised 5k here and got rid of a caller. so 3 players see a flop of 6 3 2 Rainbow. You get an all in from the small blind What do you do

So your choice is to call for your tourney life with pkt 7's after you had been the preflop raiser and the SB limp caller is shoving before you act.(not to mention there is another player to act) Dont tell me you called unless you know the guy better than you know your wife. The initial raise despite the feelings on here is not as stupid as some are making out, I'm sure Gaf(when he was studious) wrote a speel on here about preflop raising the minimum to get the job done. Pretty sure the minimum wasnt "all your chips"

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

I'm sure Gaf(when he was studious) wrote a speel on here about preflop raising the minimum to get the job done. Pretty sure the minimum wasnt "all your chips"

Well it obviously didn't "get the job done" either. If you're looking at this as a one off tournament, and all you want to do is make the money then a case can kind of be made for the pre-flop play (although in that case I still think a check is better there), and a fold on the flop. If you want to play winning tournament poker, then this is a horrible play.

[glceud]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I'll tell you what, I'll post every time I make a similar raise and the limpers fold, it will make extremely boring reading but it will prove the point. I'll also post every time I shove and get called by an over pair or overcards but that wont make very exciting reading either. I could also post every time I make that raise get called and get my chips in first no matter the flop and take the pot down. The only time your screwed is when some one gets there chips in ahead of you, which is rare as you are the bb and if the sb wants to play he should have shoved preflop. Big Blinds and a stack of 15 bb, you still have one play left before shove or fold

[Mad Duke]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Just read through all this thread whoich isnt ideal. initial thoughts are you are in big trouble as im always supicious of slow plays-just the way i am. Yet looking at stacks, and the question, Am i playing for decent cash or pussy poker limp limp captain limp dick id shove - pressure applied overpair so be it overcards lets dance.

[Mad Duke]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I tried convincing myself with a very long explanination why you should just shove :\ But im afraid to say i cant see it. Theres too many to act ie slow play twats - fair enough in my opinion this is were ive found my most charitable friends in live play:sad

[AJ]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Its an instant fold to anyone with tiny knowledge of the game.. To CALL of all your chips with 77 on a 2 3 6 board with 3 preflop callers to your raise is nothing more than ridiculous! From what i can gather if you have raised and got 3 callers preflop and the SB has shoved then there still must be 2 people to act after you which makes it an insta fold all day long!!

Agreed, from this point it's utterly unplayable

[Mad Duke]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Its an instant fold to anyone with tiny knowledge of the game.. To CALL of all your chips with 77 on a 2 3 6 board with 3 preflop callers to your raise is nothing more than ridiculous! From what i can gather if you have raised and got 3 callers preflop and the SB has shoved then there still must be 2 people to act after you which makes it an insta fold all day long!!

This is totally harsh.In thoery yes, its a bloomin pisshead casino,u need to take it all into consideration.I take it was aspers G if thats the case then feck it shove-if its good so be it if not lagers allround :lol

[AJ]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it Is this an instance were you can be more agressive in a tourney with a highly tiered pay out structure than in a cash game where raw pot odds dominate ? Could we ICM it ?

[Mad Duke]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

Agreed' date=' from this point it's utterly unplayable[/quote'] AJ what kind of board would you like to see? Not being funny just curious m8

[AJ]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it

AJ what kind of board would you like to see? Not being funny just curious m8

Pretty much with Punterspal said above. I don't see what you can really expect your 7s to be beating on that board, unless someone is playing pure air or is playing a draw or a donk that is holding AKs and has missed and decided to try and steal. Three players have called your 5k raise, you've got a assume at least one of them is holding. It's a nightmare board, you have an over pair but it's very low. Walk away there will be a better spot.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Hand Theory, Lets see how you play it I think you are good...The villian isnt shoving with a monster - he'd check it and hope you raise again. At this late stage in a tourney I cant see many combinations of 2,3,6 that people are playing especially when faced with a 5k pre flop raise. I dont think that anyone would be stupid enough to limp with AA, KK or QQ especially in a multi way pot. However they may decide they want to see a flop (wrongly in my opinion) with kq suited, A10, AJ, even in this case A2, A3, or A6 soooted obviously. Hands you are in front of. In this particular instance, I think you can make a hero call .... PS: I'd have folded pre flop ;)