online Cash game KK cutoff

[pokerlife]

What do you guys think of this? all feedback would be aprecciated(spelling?). Fulltilt .5/$1 i have 170, villain has 101.8. The relevant details from poker tracker are: VP4 PR4 agr-factor infinite. For those who are unfamiliar: VP is the % of the time that a player voluntarily puts money into the pot preflop, PR is the % of the time that a player Raises preflop(regardless of whether it's an open raise, a raise or a reraise) so someone with VP4 PR4 has played 4% of hands when required to enter the pot(as opposed to being in blinds where you are already in the pot and arn't required to enter) and has entered with a RAISE every time. I have a positional based stat also which says that he plays position very strongly. This suggests narrow ranges for early pos. He has however only been present for about 40 hands which weakens the stats' relevance. As far as any image players may have of me is concerned(not that i assume ppl are perceptive),It would be that of a tight player as i hav'n't had hands to steal blinds with, have performed few squeezes and have shown only premium pairs and aq+ hands in last 40 mins.I have only REraised pf once before, with aces, which i showed at the showdown. Dealer: You have been dealt [Kh Kd] Dealer: barcs69 folds Dealer: H-town_hottie raises to $3.50 Dealer: tg501 folds Dealer: mrmadcaddie folds Dealer: dirac74 folds Dealer: An Infidel raises to $12 Dealer: Stoystar folds Dealer: Pastanov-D folds Dealer: kazsud00 folds Dealer: H-town_hottie raises to $101.80, and is all in Dealer: An Infidel has 15 seconds left to act An Infidel: AA or QQ H-town_hottie: 22? I was leaning towards folding already but promptly folded after his reply. If i had QQ i would instant fold against most opponents(for context).

[staffy]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Too many times you see KK come up against AA. you have re-raised him after his early position raise and he has come over the top all in. He only has a couple of hands he is going to do this with. AA being one of them unless he reads you as a weak player. takes a brave man to fold KK preflop not sure I would every time but reading this in this occasion im folding.

[GaF]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff 99% of the time, folding KK pre flop will be a mistake. The situation here may be the 1% of the time where you can do it :unsure If you cannot fold KK here, then you can never fold KK.... He's playing 4-4, from what you say - even tighter from early position - lets say 2-2? Top 1.8% of hands is AA,KK,QQ,JJ - so if he was playing that, you call. But I cant see him reraising all in with JJ :unsure SOme players would with QQ - not sure he would though from what you describe :unsure He probably doesnt have the last kings in the pack...... looking like it probably is Aces :unsure Having said that - 40 hands, is nothing as you say - some players sit down, dont play for 40 hands to get a feel for the table and then start playing..... I dont think I can lay KK down here :unsure but expect him to turn over aces.....

[pokerlife]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Looser players can 3bet with QQ because they convince themselves that you could be reraising with AK and hence they should get the money in immediately. Clearly stupid logic on so many levels but used nonetheless. Similarly with AK they can figure because they have a king and ace that its unlikely(instead of less likely) that you have KK or AA and that you MUST be reraising with QQ and they can shove at a bad flip+ fold equ. It's allways frustrating to fold KK pf or even QQ though, especially when you are playing tight aggressive.

[staffy]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Does it make a difference if your playing with scared money. In other words do you have enough buy ins at that level.

[GaF]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff

Does it make a difference if your playing with scared money. In other words do you have enough buy ins at that level.

Then the best decision you can make is to fold the hand and stand up and walk away from the table - you made an error sitting down there in the first place....

[ELCAKER]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Insta call for me. I just dont think he is going to re-raise all in with aces. Such a weak play if he is, as he is assuming you'll be calling. Much more likely that he is going to 3bet you back and re-raise to $36 if he is. That way he still gets you to overplay a-k if that's what you have, and also hands that he is dominating such as qq or kk where you'll be valued into calling.

[Blatch]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Whats his information on you? Does he see you re raising a lot? Have you been active? His re raise all in is huge and I dont think he has aces unless he sees you a tight player too. With aces I would expect most to re raise to 40 and then fire all in on the flop.

[muttley]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff I'd ask myself this. "Could he be making this play with anything other than Aces?". If the answer is yes, then I would call. It's an overbet for sure, but maybe he got his Aces cracked last time out. I'd have to call and pay him off if he shows A,A.

[Punto Banco]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Basically there is no better indication possible for you of AA with only this amount invested in the pot... It is tough (and very possibly wrong) to fold here... I am of the opinion though in NLHE Cash that if you feel you have an edge over players (I know you do... unless you tilt ;)) then you are quite able to make a fold here... If you are playing above yourself then call immediately it does not get much better than this... finally consider this... because he has only seen you reraise once and with AA if he is intelligent he will assume not that you only reraise with AA but that you are fairly conservative about getting you money in this way he also may notice your positional play... to him his folding equity is HUGE... If he has AK... he is terrible against AA.... 30% against KK and 45% against QQ... factoring playing AK out of position he may have felt it was a more +EV play to shove as aposed to playing out of pos... I wouldn't be folding AK here and I think he may feel the same... I think if he is at all switched on he may have read into your play more than you think (considering only 40 hands he would have to be assuming a lot though)... of course he could be a nublet looking for a flip (so he thinks) or as you concluded AA (you have to think this is the least likely of the three though)... .... I will chat more with you about this when I speak to you again....

[SteveO]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff If it was the early stages of a tournament and you were deep stacked then you could possibly consider folding. In this situation with no specific read on the player folding has to be -EV. You're putting him on a 220/1 shot althoughtthe betting would suggest that you could narrow down these odds. I think if you did fold then you must be playing scared.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff I've played KK 12 times in cash games since start of December - Twice getting all-in vs Aces preflop. I played my Kings strongly both times. If you get re-rasied here after showing strength yourself, much as its difficult to do (and against a player so tight) I would be folding. KK is a lose big or win small kind of hand (for me at the moment) and I think in this instance it would be the former

[SteveO]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Why don't you think that the opponents range is wider than AA VOJ! If he has less than AA then you are fave to win maximum from the opponent. If I folded KK everytime someone 4 bet preflop I think that would be a massive leak.

[one3two6]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff If his range is only aces, kings, or queens you have 50% equity. With the money already in the pot its an insta call. With only 40 hands you cant narrow his range to only aces IMO. Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 133,559,712 games 0.005 secs 26,711,942,400 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 49.995% 46.10% 03.89% 61573380 5199546.00 { KK } Hand 1: 50.005% 46.11% 03.89% 61587240 5199546.00 { QQ+ }

[pokerlife]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff ECLACKER: Whilst players at this level are good preflop is thier starting requirements, i think you give thier play a little too much credit.This kind of play is actually more common then a small 3bet offering great odds with the top Pairs and i dont think i have seen JJ 3 bet, ever, deep online. BLATCH:Like i said in OP, i haven't been making any moves at all and have been slightly card dead in previous 40mins or so.He has only seen me reraise preflop once previously, with aces.Jam3bet is not uncommon for aa kk qq. STEVE-O This is deep stacked cash(although not too deep) so it is similar to early stages of a solid tourny with M's from 100-200.I am not playing scared, just trying to play correct.I think his range reasonably is: AA QQ KK and Bluff, Im willing to rule out KK due to it being very mathematically unlikely and i think AA is MUCH more likely then QQ.Why isnt my range wider? because 3betting preflop with AK or JJ against a deep opponent in a full ring cash game, even with no other info, is turning your hand into a bluff. I dont fold KK everytime i am 3bet pf, in fact; i rarely fold KK but i can fold it and think this is a reasonable situation to do so. ONE3TWO6: i dont need to narrow his range to only AA!!With KK, AA, QQ range; i just have to decide that AA is sufficiently more likely then QQ-KK and i am content to do so with the infomation available. Also; in a cash game KK IS NOT 0EV(50% equity) against a range of QQ-AA because you lose 5% of the pots you win to the rake.Although in this case pot odds clearly make a difference. Like i said if i had QQ i would instantly fold here knowing i am beat. I feel comfortable saying the range for a Non-tight player 3-betting at this level is QQ+ and AK for the looser ones(assuming deep stacked). For a tight player, from what i have seen, only AA, KK or a bluff. If i decide he is a tight and transparent player, then the fold is relatively easy. I clearly dont have enough hands to make solid judgement however, but i gave him the benefit of the doubt because: 1)he hadn't made any moves on the table 2) He appears to play position very favourably(he actually hadn't entered a pot in early or middle position yet) 3) His betting is indicative of AA-KK, especially at this level.

[ELCAKER]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Morning m8, How do you reckon I am giving them credit? You think they shoved with AA, I dont! If they were shoving with AA then it is a poor play, no credit from me on that one. I would guess they are playing AK or maybe qq. Why

[ELCAKER]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff sorry - pressed the wrong button! I must add there is nothing wrong with your fold of KK, despite the fact I think you were probably winning. People should always follow their gut instinct in my opinion and if you thought you were behind then folding is the only option. You decided to wait for a better spot and that is to be commended.

[one3two6]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff

Also; in a cash game KK IS NOT 0EV(50% equity) against a range of QQ-AA because you lose 5% of the pots you win to the rake.

There is already $113.80 in the pot, its $89.80 to call.

[pokerlife]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff

Morning m8, How do you reckon I am giving them credit? You think they shoved with AA, I dont! If they were shoving with AA then it is a poor play, no credit from me on that one. I would guess they are playing AK or maybe qq. Why

it came out wrong clearly. I meant too much credit in expecting them to 3bet offering good odds to induce a call.I hav'n't seen that play much. it's typically; blow your load and get it all in or minraise. 2 extremes.

There is already $113.80 in the pot' date=' its $89.80 to call.[/quote'] sorry i must have lost a line while editing. The next line was supposed to say "although in this case pot odds clearly make a difference".

[one3two6]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff This is becoming a mute point. If you arent ruling out kings or queens then the 50% equity takes the likleyhood of all 3 hands into account. If its part of his range its part of his range, if it isint, it isint. Folding KK pre against an unknown villian is deffo -EV. Will you fold KK every time an unknown villian 4 bets you from early position? 40 hands is not enough time for the stats or player behavior to affect your ranges.

[pokerlife]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff

This is becoming a mute point. If you arent ruling out kings or queens then the 50% equity takes the likleyhood of all 3 hands into account. If its part of his range its part of his range' date=' if it isint, it isint. Folding KK pre against an unknown villian is deffo -EV. Will you fold KK every time an unknown villian 4 bets you from early position? 40 hands is not enough time for the stats or player behavior to affect your ranges.[/quote'] No that's wrong. You can decide that AA is more likely then QQ based on what you have seen. They are both equally likely mathematically(cards dealt from deck) but not equally likely when considering all infomation available. I don't fold KK every time(barely ever) i'm 3bet from early pos(although id fold QQ almost everytime; people simple dont 3bet hands like JJ and AK lightly in deep cash) but in this instance i think the fold is correct(or at the very least prudent) considering all the infomation available. 40 hands isn't enough to make large judgements but it is definately enough to alter you're perception of how someone plays, you can't ignore 40 hands of data.

[one3two6]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Thats true I suppose. If your observations are leaning you more toward AA, then you can find a fold, I dont hate either options, and think its very close.

[muttley]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Just read this from "Action" Dan Harrington, former WSOP champion.

A lot of players will tell you about the times they folded kings because they knew their opponent was raising with aces. Here's my story. About a year ago, a tight player in the big blind raised me. I actually thought he had aces. I was in early position with a pair of kings. I made a modest raise and he reraised me. I thought a long time and called. The flop came down three small cards, and he bet a modest amount and I called. He actually had the aces. I almost threw the hand away, but I couldn't do it. Just not savvy enough. Even bets and raises that seem to indicate great strength can have a variety of explanations, from moderately strong hands to outright bluffs. And here is a little secret from the world of top-class poker. Nobody else is that savvy either,no matter what they tell you.

[GaF]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff I think Harrington there is specifically talking about tournaments (i.e. mostly short stacked) - if doesnt necessarily apply to cash games (i.e. mostly deep stacked)

[muttley]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff I think you're right. The quote was from the excellent "Harrington on Hold 'Em Volume I".I look forward to getting my hands on "Harrington on Cash Games" to see what he says about K,K.

[SteveO]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Recently read James Van Elsteyne (excuse my spelling) also saying that he's more than happy to get his chips in with KK preflop and would never lay it down. This was also referring to tournament situations and I assume it would apply to cash.

[JulioArca]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff Just read this thread and wondered what my recent record is when pushing or more often than not been pushed into committing all my chips with KK in tournaments. It came out like this:- AK pushes also TT - KK Won AJ pushes - KK Won 99 and QQ pushes - KK won QJ pushes - KK won AJ pushes - KK won T4o pushes on flop - KK won Q9o pushes on flop - KK won AK pushed - KK won Called my raise Ace on flop = KK lost (folded to pressure) AK pushed A on turn KK lost AT pushed made str8 KK lost Loads of limpers I pushed called by AT amd KK lost 88 pushed QJs pushed I called KK lost to QJ two pair AQs pushed KK lost AQ raise AQ reraise pushed A on flop KK lost Which is rather interesting in that KK won and lost an equal amount of time when being pushed preflop. However more interesting was that not once did I come up against AA. However in cash play......the money never went allin preflop against AA as they obviously wanted to maximise their return by calling my raises or me calling their initial raise (ie I didnt push). So my final thought is this - if you are not playing with scared money then you have to be prepared to lose the occasional buyin when your KK comes up against AA. CALL.........:hope

[GaF]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff

Which is rather interesting in that KK won and lost an equal amount of time when being pushed preflop.

Sorry - but I hate that train of thought :$ It's so results orientated. Far better IMO to look at it that your KK was never behind (only possible to being behind to AA) when you called a shove - in that case you call every time without hesitation (lol - ok almost every time - we can engineer sitautions where you know you're ahead but fold). I do think that we're getting away from the original post a bit too - people are far more likely to shove all in without Aces in tournaments than they are in cash games

[george2loose]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff These shoves usually indicate AK rather than AA. I think the most valid point is that if you're playing at a comfortable bankroll level you should never fold KK in this spot.

[pokerlife]

Re: online Cash game KK cutoff This isn't a high M tournament situation but a deepstack (although not awfully deep) cash game. If my opponent has 40 BBs this is an easy call with my kings(in fact the 3bet is slightly over pot sized only). As far as Harrington on cash games(deff not as good as his tourny books) goes he doesnt give specific advice on this scenario but at the end of cash games v.2 you will find an interview with Bobby Hoff, arguably the best cash game player alive. He gives alot of insight into not only KK as a hand, but to deepstack dynamics. I dont know if the fold was correct in this circumstance but i would advise anyone who put it in the autocall catagory not to play deepstacked cash games for relevant stakes without considerable experience and research beforehand as this is clearly the worst answer(even worse then autofold!!). As it stands since beginning again online 4 months ago (800 hours) i have only folded KK twice preflop. I lost alot of money by not folding them preflop in another occassion where AA was by far the most likely holding of my opponent..