[Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

[Punto Banco]

***** Hand 1337416560 ***** 0.25/0.50 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Thursday, 27 November 2008 6:05:06 AM Table TH 125 (Real/Cash Game) Seat 3: RayPenber (57.00) Seat 4: Mapys (59.68) Seat 7: oidekonj (39.10) Seat 8: andro84 (56.65) Seat 10: Cloud88 (47.50) Seat 1: rodperjo (60.97) Seat 5: KIZ&Lozi (17.47) Seat 6: BZMXH (17.27) Seat 9: Mjltai (78.39) RayPenber post BB 0.50 ** Deal ** RayPenber [4d, 6c] Mapys [N/A, N/A] oidekonj [N/A, N/A] andro84 [N/A, N/A] Cloud88 [N/A, N/A] rodperjo [N/A, N/A] KIZ&Lozi [N/A, N/A] BZMXH [N/A, N/A] Mjltai [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** Mapys Fold KIZ&Lozi Fold BZMXH Fold oidekonj Fold andro84 Call 0.50 Mjltai Fold Cloud88 Fold rodperjo Fold RayPenber Check *** Flop(Board): *** : [4c, 2c, 8h] *** Bet Round 2 *** RayPenber Check andro84 Bet 0.50 RayPenber Raise to 2.00 andro84 Raise to 6.00 RayPenber Call 6.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [4c, 2c, 8h, 6h] *** Bet Round 3 *** RayPenber Check andro84 Bet 10.00 RayPenber Call 10.00 *** River(Board): *** : [4c, 2c, 8h, 6h, 10d] *** Bet Round 4 *** RayPenber Check andro84 Bet 25.00 I called his bet after brief deliberation... I will give everybody a chance to speculate and comment on my play... wont suggest too much at the moment as to my thoughts...:ok

[happyhornet]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... I'm not fanatical about calling the re-raiseout of position on the flop. I'm not sure what would had him on that you were beating (random overcards?) after he has re-raised you. Hitting two pair on the turn is obviously great, and I like the check-call out of position. I too would have called his bet, and hoping he didn't limp with a low even pair that hit trips. He could even have slow played a big pair.

[billy the punter]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... This is a horrible spot. In this unraised pot you could be up against trips, a straight, bigger two (unlikliest) or a busted flush draw. Almost impossible you work out - I don't get involved on the flop to be honest and wouldn't have this dilemma. With 60 in the pot and another 25 to you I suppose you have to call and pray. Like I say there is no real strategic thought behind a call, you could be facing any of the above.

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

I'm not fanatical about calling the re-raiseout of position on the flop. I'm not sure what would had him on that you were beating (random overcards?) after he has re-raised you. Hitting two pair on the turn is obviously great, and I like the check-call out of position. I too would have called his bet, and hoping he didn't limp with a low even pair that hit trips. He could even have slow played a big pair.

By far I believe on the flop he is bluffing/perhaps top pair... basically what does he hope to gain by this seemingly aggressive re raise on the flop... If he hit a set why is he putting this kind of pressure on me... with 10 10 or 8 8 in the hole why is he pushing me off the hand when I have shown only possible strength... of course I cannot discount his hand... he may be taking a strange approach when flopping a monster... I would be happy to re raise him here because I believe I am ahead however my hand is not that strong and even if i am sure I am ahead my line then takes on his and will certainly not make a whole lot of sense (Perhaps 8 2 would or something)... basically I would not re raise here with ANY hands so why do it.... just some initial thoughts... on paradise poker I have almost never seen such an 'aggressive' move into such a small pot... and I feel that is key...

[george2loose]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... So are you raising for value on the flop?

[Blatch]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... Why did you check raise the flop and then call his re re raise? Im not saying I wouldnt or that its wrong, im just curious to your reasoning.

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

Why did you check raise the flop and then call his re re raise? Im not saying I wouldnt or that its wrong' date=' im just curious to your reasoning.[/quote'] Ok here it goes: Check (2nd pair ok no need to build pot) Raise (He's fishing here and if not my check raise looks strong value purely because he may fold better hands than mine though mine is vulnerable and taking this down is fine by me) Call (His Re raise here is way too fishy... i CANNOT re raise building a big pot in this situation is not my aim so call and re evaluate the turn) That's about my thought on the table at the time... I have played enough LAG games (mainly live) to know in a fishy situation this hand is well playable (personal opinion of course... also no reason to believe this player is LAG)

[heniek31]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... You tried to represent a strong hand, by check raising him on the flop. After his re raise, this hand would be over for me.

[Blatch]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... when u call the re raise what is your plan for action on the turn?

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

You tried to represent a strong hand' date=' by check raising him on the flop. After his re raise, this hand would be over for me.[/quote'] to me his re raise is weaker than his initial bet... unless he is a BIG muppet, or a Shark (have only seen him play for a short time but certainly no indication of that) I will check no mater what card arrives before the turn I give solid consideration to him holding something like 22, (unlikely) top pair low kicker (78,89), (Most likely) Paint suited connectors (clubs)... it is true that there are a lot of cards that "scare me" however I am semi confident that when I check to him the way he bets may also indicate his hand... ... despite the fact I improved... if he fired out like this I would still be in this pot the bet makes no sense (unless he is a VERY smart/calculated player that thinks he has me on a good hand... not quite as good as his monster however I have showed quite a bit of weakness taking my time to call considering all the options) barring a club and perhaps A or K I am still fairly confident if he puts out this bet... it is the whole thing of I am showing weakness however he is still Uber aggressive he DOES NOT want me to call (but its likely the overs and flush draw gives him courage to make the play)... ... just to add I was happy to keep playing my hand... once I improve I am 95% I am well ahead (but caution is still required)... I think it may be more clear if I summarise his line: Limp Middle pos, small bet on flop (muppet flush draw bet), re raise (he saw my weak bet and attacked but he is weak re raise), then big bet after blank (unless he limped in midde pos with garbage), once again on river after "weakness shown" another big bet... ... I will get some people I know to look at this and post something up after that... at no point do I respect the bets he puts out here (i know because i have at times in the past played similar)... final note i realise that I could easily fold this flop as I am out of position and MOST times I will but this time i felt there was significant reasons for me to continue...

[AJ]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

I'm not fanatical about calling the re-raiseout of position on the flop. I'm not sure what would had him on that you were beating (random overcards?) after he has re-raised you.

Agree fully with this, you should have let it go here

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... I'm replying to this without reading anything other than the initial post... I'd have raised pre-flop :loon No really. I'd make a standard raise of three and a half times the BB. You're the first one to enter the pot, and the limp just looks to weak. If you're going to play junk hands like this one, you need to try and win the pot and not just limp and hope. A pre-flop raise may have taken the hand down there and then. By limping, you're inviting other players to limp behind you. Plus it makes it very easy for the BB to come over the top of you with a raise. Post-flop, you're far too weak. I know there's merit in the check-raise, but I'm not mad on it in this situation. It seems there was no Small Blind? So there's currently 1.50 in the pot. I'd have bet the pot at this point. Maybe your opponent has a set, but you can't be too worried about that tbh. Perhaps they have an over pair, nines or tens. But I'd have expected them to bet those pre-flop. Its just as likely that they have a couple of over cards or a flush draw and are trying to steal the pot. Why are you checking the turn? What are you waiting for? There's about 21.50 in the pot and you have two pair, but are giving control of the pot to your opponent. I'd have bet half the pot here. What are YOU putting him on at this point? Maybe they do have that set, or perhaps they have something really funky like 35s, then so be it, you can't win 'em all. If they did have the nines or tens then you have them crushed at this point. By the river there's only a few hands you're behind to. The vast majority of the time you'll make money with this hand against those community cards. Its time for a value bet. There's 41.50 in the pot, I'd bet about 18 and call down a reraise. If you go bust, well thats bad luck. Kick the dog and reload. I think you played the hand in a loose-weak manner, which in my mind is a great way to loose money. With the exception of that one check-raise, you never really put your opponent to the test and gave him complete control of how the hand was played. If you play loose, you've got to be aggressive as it sets up a great table image. Your opponents never give you the credit for hitting anything, they just think you're trying it on again. I've called all-ins on the river with hands like this and my opponents have turned over AK. In the long run, thats made me more money than I've lost on the occassions my opponent had the pocket eights. I hope I haven't sounded too critical. :ok

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

I'm replying to this without reading anything other than the initial post... I'd have raised pre-flop :loon No really. I'd make a standard raise of three and a half times the BB. You're the first one to enter the pot, and the limp just looks to weak. If you're going to play junk hands like this one, you need to try and win the pot and not just limp and hope. A pre-flop raise may have taken the hand down there and then. By limping, you're inviting other players to limp behind you. Plus it makes it very easy for the BB to come over the top of you with a raise. Post-flop, you're far too weak. I know there's merit in the check-raise, but I'm not mad on it in this situation. It seems there was no Small Blind? So there's currently 1.50 in the pot. I'd have bet the pot at this point. Maybe your opponent has a set, but you can't be too worried about that tbh. Perhaps they have an over pair, nines or tens. But I'd have expected them to bet those pre-flop. Its just as likely that they have a couple of over cards or a flush draw and are trying to steal the pot. Why are you checking the turn? What are you waiting for? There's about 21.50 in the pot and you have two pair, but are giving control of the pot to your opponent. I'd have bet half the pot here. What are YOU putting him on at this point? Maybe they do have that set, or perhaps they have something really funky like 35s, then so be it, you can't win 'em all. If they did have the nines or tens then you have them crushed at this point. By the river there's only a few hands you're behind to. The vast majority of the time you'll make money with this hand against those community cards. Its time for a value bet. There's 41.50 in the pot, I'd bet about 18 and call down a reraise. If you go bust, well thats bad luck. Kick the dog and reload. I think you played the hand in a loose-weak manner, which in my mind is a great way to loose money. With the exception of that one check-raise, you never really put your opponent to the test and gave him complete control of how the hand was played. If you play loose, you've got to be aggressive as it sets up a great table image. Your opponents never give you the credit for hitting anything, they just think you're trying it on again. I've called all-ins on the river with hands like this and my opponents have turned over AK. In the long run, thats made me more money than I've lost on the occassions my opponent had the pocket eights. I hope I haven't sounded too critical. :ok

I only read the start of your post ;) but I would NEVER limp with this hand.... I checked the BB... and in terms of betting hard the turn etc... check calling will serve to limit the pot as much as possible in bad circumstances (out of position) also will allow him to bet his air/draw which I believe he has... why bet if your opponent cant call when you are ahead... check calling particularly out of position has always been a MASSIVE money maker in my eyes... ...mate loose weak is OPPOSITE of my style this is a strange hand for me simply because my cash game at this level is all about playing position with any hands that fit the range I have set out (any suited connectors, in great spots gappers, small pairs, and premiums)... I often attack limpers pre flop and also love to squeeze in any favorable situation... to be honest I hardly think I played this loose weak... really not 100% what you are talking about... maybe read the other posts and post up again...:ok

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

I only read the start of your post ;) but I would NEVER limp with this hand.... I checked the BB...

Sorry, I read the start of the HH completely wrong. :$ :tongue2 :lol I stand by the rest of the post though ;)

...mate loose weak is OPPOSITE of my style

The reason I said loose-weak was because the only time you showed any aggression was with your check raise on the flop. Other than that you just called throughout. Ignore the first paragraph I wrote, and give the rest of my post ago :D

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

Sorry, I read the start of the HH completely wrong. :$ :tongue2 :lol I stand by the rest of the post though ;) The reason I said loose-weak was because the only time you showed any aggression was with your check raise on the flop. Other than that you just called throughout. Ignore the first paragraph I wrote, and give the rest of my post ago :D

Funny thing these days with the explosion of tourneys that everyone feels they MUST bet... to be honest I am happy to check and call if it serves my purpose.. to be uber aggressive in cash games is a thin wire and must be tread carefully... it MAY prove more profitable however for me I don't fancy it...

[Blatch]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... Ive got no problem with how you played the flop so long as you have thought about what you will do on the turn if certain situations arise. If you think your good on the flop then fine, you can always re evaluate. The turn is a dream card for you but why then check / call the 10 bet? Why not check mini raise? If your check calling to trap then surely this bet on the river is an insta call and im not sure why wrere really discussing it? Im a bit confused.

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

Ive got no problem with how you played the flop so long as you have thought about what you will do on the turn if certain situations arise. If you think your good on the flop then fine, you can always re evaluate. The turn is a dream card for you but why then check / call the 10 bet? Why not check mini raise? If your check calling to trap then surely this bet on the river is an insta call and im not sure why wrere really discussing it? Im a bit confused.

I very rarely make insta calls.... taking the time to evaluate the hand properly is key for me I think but then again i am not someone that will "talk themselves" out of calling.... post was put up because I felt the hand was interesting.... I really don't mind people critiquing my play here but it wasn't really the main point... I am just looking to incite discussion... .... I think I'm confused also...:$

[gavham]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... I don't think your play is so bad, he showed strength all the way through the hand, i would call thinking overpair, but there is a good chance he has a straight.

[pokerlife]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

This is a horrible spot. In this unraised pot you could be up against trips, a straight, bigger two (unlikliest) or a busted flush draw. Almost impossible you work out - I don't get involved on the flop to be honest and wouldn't have this dilemma. With 60 in the pot and another 25 to you I suppose you have to call and pray. Like I say there is no real strategic thought behind a call, you could be facing any of the above.

There is plenty of strategic thought to the river call. In fact he has to call: there are very few hands that beat him that the betting reasonably accounts for and the pot odds are terrific.It's a very easy call in my opinion.

I'm replying to this without reading anything other than the initial post... I'd have raised pre-flop :loon No really. I'd make a standard raise of three and a half times the BB. You're the first one to enter the pot, and the limp just looks to weak. If you're going to play junk hands like this one, you need to try and win the pot and not just limp and hope. A pre-flop raise may have taken the hand down there and then. By limping, you're inviting other players to limp behind you. Plus it makes it very easy for the BB to come over the top of you with a raise. Post-flop, you're far too weak. I know there's merit in the check-raise, but I'm not mad on it in this situation. It seems there was no Small Blind? So there's currently 1.50 in the pot. I'd have bet the pot at this point. Maybe your opponent has a set, but you can't be too worried about that tbh. Perhaps they have an over pair, nines or tens. But I'd have expected them to bet those pre-flop. Its just as likely that they have a couple of over cards or a flush draw and are trying to steal the pot. Why are you checking the turn? What are you waiting for? There's about 21.50 in the pot and you have two pair, but are giving control of the pot to your opponent. I'd have bet half the pot here. What are YOU putting him on at this point? Maybe they do have that set, or perhaps they have something really funky like 35s, then so be it, you can't win 'em all. If they did have the nines or tens then you have them crushed at this point. By the river there's only a few hands you're behind to. The vast majority of the time you'll make money with this hand against those community cards. Its time for a value bet. There's 41.50 in the pot, I'd bet about 18 and call down a reraise. If you go bust, well that's bad luck. Kick the dog and reload. I think you played the hand in a loose-weak manner, which in my mind is a great way to loose money. With the exception of that one check-raise, you never really put your opponent to the test and gave him complete control of how the hand was played. If you play loose, you've got to be aggressive as it sets up a great table image. Your opponents never give you the credit for hitting anything, they just think you're trying it on again. I've called all-ins on the river with hands like this and my opponents have turned over AK. In the long run, that's made me more money than I've lost on the occassions my opponent had the pocket eights. I hope I haven't sounded too critical. :ok

I'm not trying to beat on you but: Checking bb is clearly correct. On the flop betting the pot is a very bad play! He is out of position with a marginal hand that may win at a showdown, getting to the showdown cheaply would be optimal.If he bets all the hands he is beating will call or raise and other then the flush draw theres not really a weaker hand that will call,he also opens the door for someone to take him off the pot with nothing or to take him off it with a semibluff on the flush draw and costing him a lot of equity in the process. Furthermore betting wont give him any infomation but check raising gives him plenty and the chance to cause a better hand to fold! How can you have a go at him for checking the turn. The guy has 3bet him on the flop!! what could this mean? the only hand that betting is good for is against a flush draw and if he has one he's already drawn at bad odds! If the guy has an overpair he will bet anyway(he's already shown he loves to overplay it) and if the guy has a set he's going to bet and raise you if you bet.More importantly though is that betting here tells your opponent that you in fact very strong on the flop OR that the 6 improved your hand, why should you offer free infomation. After seeing the turn and river action its obvious that something fishy is going on. There are actually no hands that fit the betting too well. Either he played the nuts ultra aggressively against a blind(i don't think so) or he has had a draw/air the way. Seeing is the draw missed i would definitely be checking to him on river. If he has the nuts(a set is good enough) all the money is going in the middle either way but if hes bluffing or has missed his flush you can only make money on the end by inducing a desperate bluff. If he has 99 TT or 77 he will fold to your river bet anyway because if you bet the river he has to put you on 2 pair or a set. How has he played the hand weakly? He has check raised and called a 3bet on the flop!! that's very strong. He hasn't gone away on the turn, still strength.I'm not saying play was optimal but weak is not the word i'd use to describe my representation of his actions.Notice how his actions actually fit quite a few hands as well unlike the opponent who has not been telling a consistent story at all. In regards to the hand; i would have definitely check-raised the flop because a minbet is just so weak and in online cash a min bet often means either "i have a weak hand that wants to build a possible winning pot but not too much! please let me see the showdown on my terms!" or "i have a draw and would like to see the showdown cheaply whilst extracting value for my hand!please let me get there cheap!" Both of these things are illogical and stupid clearly but that's why only weak players are making that play. I would probably fold to the 3bet(unless i know something about this player) even if it is suspicious just because it is clearly a marginal situation at best to play a weak hand out of position in a rapidly expanding pot without the initiative and im sure i could find better spots to extract money from the table. Once you have hit that turn you are going nowhere unless he check behind,the flush comes and he value bets you. because that's really the only hand your losing to.A set simply would not have 3bet after your check-raise when he's in position for such obvious reasons(assuming he knows what position is!lol!). By the river the call is 100%. Anyone who can fold the river needs to rethink something and perhaps sit down and do a SHAL. bluff(2 unimproved high cards)/busted flush draw(KQ clubs or Ax clubs) for sure, a set just seems too unlikely although you will occassionaly go bust against one in a similar sitch. A strait is almost impossible based on the early open limping and the flop action makes a set seem dubious, the flop doesn't contain any reasonable 2 pair hands and i don't see how a single pair can bet the turn(unless its AA or KK) and they can definitely not bet the river. But i am a :nana

[gavham]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... I have came to the conclusion he has 35cc, i like this hand it's a must call as not that many hands really beat you, again i think you played this well and have to make the call.Sometimes we play a hand perfectly and lose!

[DaMatrix]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... To me it looks like 22 or Ac3c. Maybe Ac8c or 5c6c. So I'd prob make the call too ;)

[gavham]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... Well what happened?

[SteveO]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... He got timed out and so never got to see his opponents cards.;)

[gavham]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line...

He got timed out and so never got to see his opponents cards.;)

Hehe i think you must be right, or he is just keeping the suspense going.

[Punto Banco]

Re: [Cash, FR]What Do People Think Of This Line... Sorry 4got about the thread all together... here it is... I would agree with many and say I really probably shouldn't have been playing this hand (or many at all really) in such a position but i flt I saw enough in the hand to continue... I was of the opinion that the strength of myself staying in the hand would slow him down... it didn't therefore there were three possible conclusions... he had an uber strong hand... a big/medium draw... or air... of the three the latter two seemed most likely given the circumstances of the hand (the texture of the board if you will in correlation to his bet sizing) and with the draws missing by the river their really was only one course of action... I feel I got a little lucky here and definately this hand has educated me in a way... if you can learn while making money thaty simply cannot be a bad thing... thanks all for the discussion i enjoyed it (there will 100% be more in the near future)...:ok andro84 won ($0.00), showed [9c 5h]