'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure

[Samba_SamPa]

Those of you on my table when it happened last night will remember this hand. At the time I was delighted that I managed to get away from it, and thought it was a hand I wouldn't have done so in the not too distant past, so surely this is a sign I am 'improving'! Well, after speaking to a poker playing friend, whose opinion I value highly, he's cast doubts in my mind. From saying my bet from utg was too high, to saying that depending on the range Hornet could make the move with it is probably -EV to be folding. Anyway, throwing it open to you. All opinions, and more importantly explanations of your opinions, will be warmly received. ***** Hand 1269237456 ***** 75.00/150.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 08 October 2008 21:27:38 PLounge league (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: PLmorlspin (3690.00) Seat 2: PLTelepee (2328.00) Seat 3: PL borokp (3653.00) Seat 4: plSamba (3022.00) Seat 5: PL jolly67 (2513.00) Seat 6: SPSlickMic (2330.00) Seat 7: PLHornet (4710.00) Seat 8: PLkip6 (1695.00) Seat 9: PLNade (1954.00) Seat 10: PLavongirl (1095.00) PLTelepee post SB 75.00 PL borokp post BB 150.00 ** Deal ** PLmorlspin [N/A, N/A] PLTelepee [N/A, N/A] PL borokp [N/A, N/A] plSamba [Qs, Qh] PL jolly67 [N/A, N/A] SPSlickMic [N/A, N/A] PLHornet [N/A, N/A] PLkip6 [N/A, N/A] PLNade [N/A, N/A] PLavongirl [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** plSamba Raise to 550.00 PL jolly67 Fold SPSlickMic Fold PLHornet Raise to 1850.00 PLkip6 Fold PLNade Fold PLavongirl Fold PLmorlspin Fold PLTelepee Fold PL borokp Fold plSamba Fold *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1325.00 PLmorlspin Fold Win: 0.00 PLTelepee Fold Win: 0.00 PL borokp Fold Win: 0.00 plSamba Fold Win: 0.00 PL jolly67 Fold Win: 0.00 SPSlickMic Fold Win: 0.00 PLHornet By default Win: 1325.00 PLkip6 Fold Win: 0.00 PLNade Fold Win: 0.00 PLavongirl Fold Win: 0.00

[SteveO]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure I'd put hornet on a hand like AK AQ or a pocket pair lower than QQ. Don't think he has KK or AA. My reason for this being I think he would raise slightly less with AA or KK so I think I'd shove allin and if he has AA or KK tough. Situations like this are often player dependent, now let's say Guppie had made that reraise I'd put him on at least AK and would fold. Just to add I don't mind the laydown and you probably made the correct decision.

[GeordieGaz]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure He's got AK in my opinion. I agree with SteveO in that I doubt he has AA or KK, the reraise is a bit too big so i think i'd deffo be callin(edit:all in) in a flash!! If he has AK then fair enuf.... uve got your money in with the best hand! P.S. would be nice of hornet if he told us what he actually had!! ;)

[SteveDaRake]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure As I spoke to pete earlier, I think the raise to just over 3.5x bb's is too much at this stage of the tournament with the blind to stack ratios. At early levels 4xbb's is ok, but now you can even get away with 2.5bb's as it does the same job although personally I'd make it 425-450 as it makes things easier post flop and reduces pot commitment issues. His 3bet all depends on the villian. Pete says he was TAG, I'd still include AA-JJ, AKs, AKo here in his range. His bet is one where he's putting you to a decision for all his chips. He could even be doing this light with the intention of folding if you come over the top as he knows pete is a tight solid player. Pokerstove says we should be getting our money in and together with all the money being in the top 3, and 19 are left at the moment. I think a push is in order. Folding isn't too bad as this is very situational and read dependant, but I do think it's more +ev to push as after all your have the 3rd best hand in hold'em.

[Blatch]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure Tourney position, the slight over raise and stack sizes to me makes it look like a shove all in is the order of the day here. I think your good in this position. Could do a stop and go if your not willing to race for the lot just yet.

[SteveDaRake]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure Dont think a stop & go would work here. If he calls pot is 4K and hero's stack is 1.2K, villian can feel pot committed with anything and could catch with hands like AJ, AQ, KQ etc which puts you in a bad spot if say an AKx board came down.

[happyhornet]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure I put a re-raise in and suddenly I am a villain:sad :lol:lol First up, you were correct to fold as I did have KK. As you were UTG I figured your raise was a little high for AA but definitely a possible with AK AQ. I re-raised too much for two reasons: 1. My internet was shafted all night. A call here or a min-raise, you (or others) call, and I time out on the turn and lose..:( 2. The over-raise might indicate weakness and get QQ or JJ to call. Now can people stop calling me a villain, I'm a very sensitive soul..;)

[GeordieGaz]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure you wuda had me fooled hornet..... well played m8!! :ok and an excellent fold Samba! :clap

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure Thanks for responses so far. I need to clarify what I am asking though. Yes it was the right thing to fold last night - Hornet [the villain ;)] had KK - but in general is it right? It COULD have been AK for example that Hornet had, and I would be throwing away a very good chance of doubling up. Given that there's no money til the top 3 and there are 19 left here iirc, should I not be shoving with this hand to give myself a chance of winning the tourney? I folded this time, and never got back above 3000 chips, and eventually went out in 11th, so, apart from a few BPP points, it didn't benefit me. Whereas if I had called and Hornet had had AK and I had doubled up to 6000 then I would have given myself a better chance. Or am I just babbling? :unsure I was over the moon with myself last night when Hornet showed KK, but talking to that bloody Steve today has thrown a right old spanner in the works :lol Is it actually -EV to toss that away pre-flop?

[GaF]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure Your M is 13 or 14 ..... so you still have time and not in desperation stakes yet by any means - but you are needing to hit the accelerator a bit by this stage of the tourney. I think I find it tough to get away from Kings this shallow in chips :unsure (and yes, in this specific circumstance, thats an 80% chance I go bust!)

[Jammy]

Re: 'Great Fold' I thought, now not sure If you had a read on the re-raiser being tight preflop then this can be a good fold by all means. In this situation it did prove to be of course. With no reads or against a somewhat looser player i am shoving over the top here and going all in. Infact, unless i view the player as being very tight i am almost certainly not laying this down as i am fairly favourable against their range and doubling up here gives me the chip lead. Personally i probably could not bring myself to lay down QQ here and i think the shove is probably +EV in the long run. Like i say however if you did have a read here and went with it then kudos to you. Solid reads incorporated with assigning player ranges are obviously huge moneymakers. Nice fold in this case for what it is worth although i'd still favour the shove in general cases.