Xray Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I can fully understand their requirement to manage risk but I feel it is unfair and unacceptable for a bookie to quote a price and then refuse to honour it as a result of a 'trading decision'. They should manage their risk by limiting ALL their customers not just a few. Surely this is an unfair business practice. If a shop incorrectly marks an item with a wrong price, they are obligated to sell at that price so why should these rogues get away with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norfolk Enchance Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? They should manage their risk by limiting ALL their customers not just a few I agree with this. Considering the overrounds applied by most bookies, they shouldn't need to restrict some customers and not others if they manage their prices properly. Pinnacle (and a couple of others) seem to manage their risk very well with a much smaller overround by constantly adjusting prices according to weight of money. Slapdash suggested fractional odds might be one reason they don't move with the times. It is much easier to adjust decimal prices. A lot of mugs use fractional odds though and the bookies would hate to lose them ;) I don't think the GC will care though to be honest. They didn't care when premierbet disappeared with some punters' money. Problem is the general public tends to view all gamblers as losers. They don't realise that some people actually make a decent profit over time..... or at least they would if bookies allowed them to continue to win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocket Lady Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? I'll bring this thread to the attention of CM - i'm sure that he will have an opinion and some insight into this. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadia00 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? I don't think any bookie should be obligated to trade with me. But I do think I ought to have the right to anonymity up to the the point when they ask for the money to pay for the bet I just purchased from them. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius Marcellus Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? Any independent bookie with just one shop, who puts up a price, that is clearly not an error, will undoubtledly honour it to his regular punters, be they big or small bets. We layed Nycteos the Saturday before last at 3/1 for a considerable sum to regular credit and cash clients. If a 'Blue Mooner' punter from Ladbrokes had come in to back it, he wouldn't have got it unless he got in before the credit and cash clients, which for a cash non-regular, is impossible. To keep laying the same price when all and sundry want it is no good for business, especially if you can't lay the rest of the field. In cases of the big 3, who I am no fan of, with so many shops, you can't realistically expect them to lay a price after the cleaners and half of the racing world has already piled in on the phones before the shops open. They now know what is going to be backed, so why leave the price unattended? It will only make their considerable losses, if any, a lot larger. Errors are a different kettle of fish. In an old example from years ago, a nag at Lingfield opened up at 13/8, the boardmarker wrote the 13 but left it there to answer the phone. When he came back to the board he asked what the price was, and somebody shouted 13/2. He wrote it up and all the 'jolly backers' waded in, including me. There was no way we were going to be paid 13/2 as it had obviously never been 13/2, we compromised at 15/8, the best price it reached before the off. Unavoidable errors in laying a price (or a betting coup in other words) have to be suffered as part and parcel of the game. Marcus Foley got jocked off Hendersons horse yesterday, Mick Fitzgerald got on it (bastard) the price dropped faster than Dockside Doris's drawers when the ships are in, and it won by half the track. As for limiting all customers, not just a few???? How do you do it, by percentages? Phone punter 'A' can only have £400 of his intended £800, so cash punter 'B' in the shop can only have £2-50p of his original £5 ?? At least with punter ' B' we've got the money, and haven't got to chase it if it loses. As for percentages, why bet with a bookie anyway? You can allegedly get 20% better odds on Betfair, and all you mega-rich moaners pay minimal commission anyway. Bookies greyhound percentages (135-140% every race) are blatantly ridiculous. BAGS and BEGS contracts are worth a fortune to some tracks. I have not been dog racing, for a serious betting purpose, since Betfair began covering greyhounds. But if the track bookies don't bet to these percentages, as they are indeed instructed to do, they won't get the BAGS or BEGS contracts. These are not wealthy tracks like The Stow, and with no dog contract, their fate is sealed as being a new supermarket within a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius Marcellus Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? Furthermore, if bookies want to halve your bet, why not go to shops and put the bet on there? I don't know how it works these days, but years ago, any Big 5 manager could take ANY SINGLE bet that didn't take out £1,000, and never had to phone his area office. So, if you wanted £400 on a 10/1 shot, you went to 5 shops and had an £80 bet in each one. There is a new shop in Romford, Essex, that gets packed with arbers. Apparently, he lays the best price of the big 3 that is available. As a moaner of stakes being cut, would you do this in your own shop, if you had one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? . If a shop incorrectly marks an item with a wrong price' date=' they are obligated to sell at that price so why should these rogues get away with it?[/quote'] No they are not, a price on a sticker in a shop is in legal terms an "invitation to treat" Shops (or bookies) for that matter have no legal obligation to act on or deal with an displayed price. Here endth the lesson :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordinarysunday Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? Xray..... What kind of role would you be wanting the Gambling Commission to play in this ''proposal??. Surely you are not suggesting that all bookmakers cannot restrict customers?....If you are,I can only imagine you are quite new to the game and have a wee bit to learn about the way the industry works.:spank With respect,not all gamblers pick up the paper every day,:drums and decide what their daily ''flutter'' will be over breakfast.Are you aware that there are thousands of professional gamblers who,if you let them,would be betting anything from five to ten (and more) grand a bet,and winning day after day,week after week, year after year,would you want to be their bookie? :wall I have never understood the mythical connection between buying goods in a shop (where the retailer is guaranteed a profit),and placing a bet at advertised odds in a bookmakers,where is the connection?:sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumyat Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? Gambling firms requires a licence. Legislators can impose their conditions on how gambling operates. One condition might be that to offer any price in a shop you have to accommodate all punters to some minimum liability. Say £100. You can of course withdraw that price later if you dont fancy further trade but while it exists you have to honour all trade. I am banned to zero in my local branch of Corals. I went back after three years and the settler woman remembered me - even criminals are allowed to start afresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius Marcellus Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? One condition might be that to offer any price in a shop you have to accommodate all punters to some minimum liability. Say £100. You can of course withdraw that price later if you dont fancy further trade but while it exists you have to honour all trade. I am banned to zero in my local branch of Corals. I went back after three years and the settler woman remembered me - even criminals are allowed to start afresh. In a one shop independent, the price goes when the boss says so. Who decides when the price is gone in one of the big 3 shops? The bosses, that's who. The price can't exist all the time it's on display. There is a point when bosses say ' cut it' and if a manager doesn't cut it, he will get bollocked. Banned to zero? Only one or two reasons I can think of :- 1) You were 'field checked' by a manager/manageress, and over a set period of time, you made a profit, therefore, you are bad for business. 2) You had an abusive argument and got banned from the shop over a price you couldn't get. The 'settler woman' can't refuse to take your bets, it's the managers/manageresses job to tell you you can't bet there. Get somebody else to get your money on for you. We have staff who refuse to serve certain customers, for various reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumyat Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? >>>You were 'field checked' by a manager/manageress, and over a set period of time, you made a profit, therefore, you are bad for business. Yes - I made a substantial sum in a 6 month period in 2004 on a new 2nd half coupon Coral tried. Banning abusive customers is entirely reasonable but I was always perfectly polite - even after having a bet refused. Though I did try some sarcastic remarks to the effect that I doubt I would be refused if I wanted to bet the cartoon racing or the roulette. However my point is that if you offer a football coupon or whatever you have to take all bets from any valid customer (not the drunks, cretins etc) to that minimum stake. The minimum is sufficiently low that its not going to kill the business to honour the bet and the punter will get something on that desired trade. It doesn't matter if the bookie doesn't like the rule since it would be enshrined in the legislation of how bookies have to operate - ie if u want a licence this is the way you have to do business whether you like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius Marcellus Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: Should Bookies be reported to the Gambling Commission? However my point is that if you offer a football coupon or whatever you have to take all bets from any valid customer (not the drunks' date=' cretins etc) to that minimum stake. [b']The minimum is sufficiently low that its not going to kill the business to honour the bet and the punter will get something on that desired trade. It doesn't matter if the bookie doesn't like the rule since it would be enshrined in the legislation of how bookies have to operate - ie if u want a licence this is the way you have to do business whether you like it or not. No legislative body will EVER be able to tell a bookie to lay a price for a set stake, no matter how many pros, semi-pros and 'drunks or cretins' are involved. Are the commission going to send somebody to every one of the 8,000 or so shops in the land to see that the books are in order if bets are refused? Some people actually bet for fun, not to make a living. The living is made by the bloke on the other side of the counter. He puts up his money against yours, at the odds he wants to lay at. If you don't like those odds you can always go elsewhere. In my opinion, nobody NEEDS more than £1,000 a week, but if you have millions, your bets may be large, but they are still fun, and you will place a lot of them. Consequently, you will lose, even though you will gave winning days. But if somebody tries to take it from one company by way of betting for a living, and thus being too selective, he should not be surprised if he gets knocked back. If you owned a shop selling furniture, would you let Joe Public come in, buy a sofa, but walk out with a chair as well? So, without you, and others like you, in the shops, it's the 'drunks and cretins' that keep them in business?? Have you any idea what it costs to run a shop for a year? I can assure you that half a dozen 'drunks or cretins' in each shop on a daily basis won't pay for a fraction of it. Therefore, you larger stake punters DO get on, but at reduced odds, when it suits the bookie. Once again, Betfair is there for all, and there are never any knockbacks. You may spend half the day getting on in small bets, but you will get on, at the odds you want. All taken by what are referred to as £2 mugs by those that supposedly know the price of fish. Who knows what ideas this commission would have? What would happen if ths commission said 'Right. That's it. No more credit betting?' That would stop a vast majority of people betting, which in the end, will affect racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumyat Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) Somehow ten years have passed. This old thread mentioned that since gambling was a regulated activity the people who grant the licences could set conditions one of which might be that all punters should be able to bet to some minimum size. Some comments then suggested it wouldn't happen. I never understood why not, the regulator can set how the bookie operates eg the max stake on the FOBTs. So why not this min stake rule. The Guardian mentioned today (March 25, 2018) possible developments related to the 2008 comments with the recent publication of the Gambling Commission Review. "Here too, though, the mood music seems quite positive. Representatives of punters’ groups met with senior Gambling Commission officials on Thursday to discuss the possibility of a minimum bet limit becoming a requirement of a bookmaker’s operating licence, and apparently left believing that it will, at some point, become a reality." https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/25/gambling-commission-recommendations-siginificant-impact-online-punters-horse-racing https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/21/minimum-bet-rule-could-be-winner-for-punters-horse-racing "The idea of a “minimum bet rule”, which would require a bookmaker to lay an advertised price to lose a specified sum, is not new. New South Wales, one of Australia’s main racing jurisdictions, introduced a minimum bet policy in 2014 and other Australian states, including Victoria, the home of the Melbourne Cup, have followed suit. It has proved to be straightforward, effective and, most interesting of all, popular not only with punters but also some of the layers, who have found it easier to trade in a marketplace where turnover is strong and a price must be honoured and available to all." https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/23/bookmakers-urged-to-rethink-closing-punters-accounts https://www.racingpost.com/news/are-bookmakers-unfairly-closing-customer-accounts-views-from-tuesday-s-debate/316874 Edited April 6, 2018 by Dumyat More info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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