should I have shoved the flop?

[robilaruk]

This is not a bad beat but I just don't get these $5 turbo's at all - whats my play on the flop? should I shove - is there any point in value betting? I can't see why I am not consistently beating them - am I too loose to play KJ so early UTG? is this a leak? really need some help here Damo 25.00/50.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 27 September 2007 22:30:31 5 Player $5 NL Speed (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: toby934 (1055.00) Seat 2: schisser3 (1110.00) Seat 3: Plasto (2435.00) Seat 4: robilaruk (1190.00) Seat 5: opel74 (1710.00) schisser3 post SB 25.00 Plasto post BB 50.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [Jd, Kh] *** Bet Round 1 *** robilaruk Raise to 250.00 opel74 Fold toby934 Fold schisser3 Call 250.00 Plasto Call 250.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [2s, 10d, Ks] *** Bet Round 2 *** schisser3 Check Plasto Check robilaruk Bet 450.00 schisser3 Call 450.00 Plasto Call 450.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [2s, 10d, Ks, Kd] *** Bet Round 3 *** schisser3 Check Plasto Check robilaruk All-in 490.00 schisser3 All-in 410.00 Plasto Call 490.00 *** River(Board): *** : [2s, 10d, Ks, Kd, 4s] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3490.00 toby934 Fold Win: 0.00 schisser3 [3s, 9s] Flush to the king Win: 3330.00 Plasto [Ac, Qh] Pair of kings Win: 0.00 robilaruk [Jd, Kh] Three of a kind, kings Win: 160.00 opel74 Fold Win: 0.00

[staffy]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? Personally I dont like the initial play. I would have folded before the flop. Having got to the flop I would have pushed all in.

[robilaruk]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

Personally I dont like the initial play. I would have folded before the flop. Having got to the flop I would have pushed all in.

thanks Staffy - would knowing these are 3 minute rounds and the blinds are up in about 20 secs make a difference? and this is the first hand I have raised? just wondering? Cheers Damo

[AJ]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? The guy called a 5 x BB raise with 3 9, he then pushed on a paired board with a 25% chance of hitting his flush. You were ahead at every stage you put money in you played it well enough, if you push at the flop he's calling, so same end result. But you gave yourself chances to get out

[staffy]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? I would still have folded Damo.

[robilaruk]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

The guy called a 5 x BB raise with 3 9, he then pushed on a paired board with a 25% chance of hitting his flush. You were ahead at every stage you put money in you played it well enough, if you push at the flop he's calling, so same end result. But you gave yourself chances to get out

thanks AJ am wondering that I might have given 93s a chance as well - he can call the flop bet and fold the turn if he misses - I think what balls'd this up was the other fella calling as well - there is so much in the pot on the turn I can't see how he can fold? Just wondering how aggressive I need to be on the flop with TP? thanks Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

I would still have folded Damo.

thank you - advice noted:ok Damo

[glceud]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? $5.00 STT are annoying. I won $80 in the blue square bubble tourney and decided to play a lot (100) of there Maui jackpot tournies. I made the grand total of $13 profit despte playing against players that sharkscope have down as losing $4000 in a thousand games and an awful lot of them really should'nt be allowed out. I'm never doing i again! Personally I wouldnt have been in the pot pre-flop either, the blinds may be going up fast but as yet you still have 20+ BBs left. If you had missed the flop you would have folded and had a stack too small to play much poker with. You hit the flop and got called by a couple of guys having a wee break from whatever they were doing. some times they will win but most, sorry more of the time you will. But are $5 STT's really worth the inner torture?

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

$5.00 STT are annoying. I won $80 in the blue square bubble tourney and decided to play a lot (100) of there Maui jackpot tournies. I made the grand total of $13 profit despte playing against players that sharkscope have down as losing $4000 in a thousand games and an awful lot of them really should'nt be allowed out. I'm never doing i again! But are $5 STT's really worth the inner torture?

I've been thinking along these lines myself lately. I used to play the $10 stt's on Laddies. I rarely played more than a couple a day, but over the course of 100 games I had an ROI that hovered around 25% and was ITM about 40% (about average). After cashing out a couple of hundred dollars in profit and half my initial BR, I was left with $100, so decided to start playing the $5 stt's instead. The play on these tables is so loose, that I found it a struggle to break even :cryI switched to Party, but their $1 rake from a $6 buy-in makes it even harder to show a profit. I've recently switched to playing on Boss, and although I haven't played many games there yet, I'm getting absolutely creamed :@ I realise I should be able to make money from the poorer players, and I'm certainly showing a steady profit on the 5c/10c cash games. But the $5 stt's are doin' my bleedin' head in! We've all seen people moaning on various forums that the lower level games are unbeatable because of the poor standard of play, when in fact the complete opposite should be true. However I'm currently considering whether to up my BR and start playing the $10 tables instead.

[robilaruk]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

Personally I wouldnt have been in the pot pre-flop either, the blinds may be going up fast but as yet you still have 20+ BBs left. If you had missed the flop you would have folded and had a stack too small to play much poker with. You hit the flop and got called by a couple of guys having a wee break from whatever they were doing. some times they will win but most, sorry more of the time you will. But are $5 STT's really worth the inner torture?

hmm noticing a pattern here - it seems I am too loose then PF so early in the blinds and structure can I ask when you would play KJ from UTG 50/100 or 100/200? and can't do much about the buy-ins - BR got swallowed up paying the bills whilst I was looking for work over the restful summer break I had :) - so being a good boy I am sticking to sound BR management - though I might give the multi-tabling turbo's a miss and single play some $11's full tables instead thanks for the input:ok Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

We've all seen people moaning on various forums that the lower level games are unbeatable because of the poor standard of play, when in fact the complete opposite should be true. However I'm currently considering whether to up my BR and start playing the $10 tables instead.

you're right we should be crushing the $5.50's - so why aren't we?? for me its perhaps knowing too much strategy and giving too much respect to the other players (and them having no idea of the gap concept, or fold equity or all the other theories out there). I also think my game is beter suited to normal tables than turbo's, though the lure of playing 10-12 games per hour on the turbo's to improve the hourly rate is strong, compared to 2 or 3 on the full tables. and because I am just breaking even at the $5.50 turbo's at the mo, I am posting the sort of hands like the KJ to ask advice - when to play, what position, how big the blinds need to be etc - that way I will get a better understanding of picking my spot. just my thoughts Damo ps I a probably sucking at these games, because I am playing at lower stakes than I used to a few months ago - so perhaps the money doesn't mean anything to me (i.e. winning a tenner is not a huge amount and wont help pay for stuff in normal life) so therefore I am prepared to gamble more?, or maybe because the money means nothing to others either, so they are prepared to gamble more? I just need to be disciplined and make every $ count at the mo regardless of buy-in and play my optimal game and accept that I will probably be drawn out on, more when I get my chips in whilst ahead against weaker players :ok Damo

[glceud]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? Would say it depends on your stack size in relation to the blinds and how many players are left in. Less than 10 bb's and you shove, you dont really have the chips to manouver. One thing about the initial hand I'm spending a lot of time thinking about at the moment is the size of my raises. I seem to raise too much at times leaving me with very expensive continuation bets that due to the size of the pot I have created inevitabley get called. You might have got away with the first hand if your inital raise had been less as it would have left you more chips to take down a smaller pot.

[robilaruk]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

Would say it depends on your stack size in relation to the blinds and how many players are left in. Less than 10 bb's and you shove, you dont really have the chips to manouver. One thing about the initial hand I'm spending a lot of time thinking about at the moment is the size of my raises. I seem to raise too much at times leaving me with very expensive continuation bets that due to the size of the pot I have created inevitabley get called. You might have got away with the first hand if your inital raise had been less as it would have left you more chips to take down a smaller pot.

I raised deliberately high because 3-4BB raises where getting 2-3 callers - I wanted one caller at most :lol against 2 people if I missed the flop - I am not continuation betting - just checking and hoping for a free turn card - no point puuting in good money after bad etc Damo

[goater14]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? Trouble with these low stakes sng,s is like you stated people will call your raises with almost anything hoping to hit the flop. I think where a lot of us go wrong is that we expect these other players to have a basic understanding of pot odds etc but clearly they have,nt a clue. May be worth altering your play slightly taking into consideration these other players GL

[JCtips]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

Trouble with these low stakes sng,s is like you stated people will call your raises with almost anything hoping to hit the flop. I think where a lot of us go wrong is that we expect these other players to have a basic understanding of pot odds etc but clearly they have,nt a clue. May be worth altering your play slightly taking into consideration these other players GL

I agree goater14. I think that in the lower limits we get all the newbies :) playing loose plus, even those who know how to play, people will always call and make some "crazy" plays hoping to hit that miraculous card in the River or whatever (probably thinking that even if they lose it's only a few Euros/Pounds...). In higher limits people usually have a better understanding of the game and tend to play tighter. Cheers.

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: should I have shoved the flop?

you're right we should be crushing the $5.50's - so why aren't we?? for me its perhaps knowing too much strategy and giving too much respect to the other players (and them having no idea of the gap concept' date=' or fold equity or all the other theories out there).[/quote'] I've recently been playing the $6 full ring, limit games on Party, and I'm doing much better. After 20 games my ROI is at just over 37%, and ITM is almost 53% :nana I realise this is a ludicrously small sample, but its doing wonders for my confidence. I don't think I could stand playing limit cash games, but for SnG's it really suits the standard style of play (ie tight early, more aggressive as the blinds move up). At this level so many players are chasing hands early on, that they just keep calling, hoping to hit a K on the river. By the time the blinds reach 100/200, half the table is short stacked and the rest have generally been pushing chips around between themselves. At that point the stacks aren't particularly substantial in relation to the blinds, the play tends to become fairly timid and its very easy to pick up a couple of pots with a raise to 400. More often than not, that puts me about level with the chip leaders, which buys me a bit of time to either look for another occassion to take down a pot with a raise, or wait for a genuine hand. My only gripe would be that Party sting you for a dollar rake from a $6 buy-in :@. Unfortunately they're the only site I've found that have limit SnG's that fill fairly quickly, if at all. Also, I read a very interesting article by Howard Lederer recently, which totally contradicted everything else I've read about bubble play. He suggested in SnG's you shouldn't be overly aggressive until after the bubble. In fact he said you should aim for 3rd place, and only play for 1st once you're down to the last three. This really rang a bell with me, as so many times playing $5.00+0.5 NLHE stt's I've gone out in 4th position, pushing with non-premium, but "shoveable" hands.

[friskyfitz]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? Im going to take a different line here as I feel that i probably play as many turbos as anyone else here. To me, Your initial raise was perfect. Not too big and not too small - Guranteed to get you callers. Once you flopped well - Its then a case of taking as much as you can from the pot. you still had 2 players after the turn and there was only one play then - All in. Many people dont get the fact that you MUST play to the blinds and in Turbo they are extremely aggressive. Had your initial raise been unsuccessful then you would have to fold to any bet - Thats really the law with these. Had you hit your king on the flop and someone else had say, King, two - Then you were knackered anyway as they would most likely have gone all in before you. Important thing with Turbo for me is... YOU MUST MAXIMISE EVERY POT. Ive seen guys play these at regular pace and hit AA and play conservative and win say 100 chips - 6 minute later they are faced with 200/400 blinds. Thats where players can get into serious trouble The fact that you got caught on a flush is part and parcel of this game and had he not hit - He was out!! They are the kind of players you need calling you

[friskyfitz]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? This, just now for me - :sad Put me out of the game but again, I was well ahead when the money went in! Now, Had I gone all in after the flop - This guy was going all in too!!! (Thats the standard here as he only sees top pair and not the flush draw) It happens - Dont let it get to you! ;) P.S He went out 3 hands later chasing an open ended straight ***** Hand 780180442 ***** 25.00/50.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Sunday, October 07, 2007 7:45:41 PM 5 Player NL Speed (Real/Tournament) Seat 1: szmoli01 (1450.00) Seat 2: smartguy73 (1410.00) Seat 3: friskyfit (1305.00) Seat 4: Mr Fung (1845.00) Seat 5: booboo1066 (1490.00) Mr Fung post SB 25.00 booboo1066 post BB 50.00 ** Deal ** szmoli01 [N/A, N/A] smartguy73 [N/A, N/A] friskyfit [Kc, Qc] Mr Fung [N/A, N/A] booboo1066 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** szmoli01 Raise to 200.00 smartguy73 Call 200.00 friskyfit Call 200.00 Mr Fung Fold booboo1066 Fold *** Flop(Board): *** : [Qd, 6c, 10c] *** Bet Round 2 *** szmoli01 Bet 400.00 smartguy73 Fold friskyfit Call 400.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [Qd, 6c, 10c, 8s] *** Bet Round 3 *** szmoli01 All-in 850.00 friskyfit All-in 705.00 *** River(Board): *** : [Qd, 6c, 10c, 8s, 9s] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2885.00 szmoli01 [Js, Qh] Straight to the queen Win: 2885.00 smartguy73 Fold Win: 0.00 friskyfit [Kc, Qc] Pair of queens Win: 0.00 Mr Fung Fold Win: 0.00 booboo1066 Fold Win: 0.00

[friskyfitz]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? How's this for a desperate push by me.. :lol:lol:lol:lol I couldn't stop saying sorry :$ ***** Hand 780502838 ***** 150.00/300.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:40:15 PM 5 Player NL Speed (Real/Tournament) Seat 2: friskyfit (1710.00) Seat 3: puttypitty (5790.00) friskyfit post SB 150.00 puttypitty post BB 300.00 ** Deal ** friskyfit [10h, 6d] puttypitty [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** friskyfit All-in 1710.00 puttypitty Call 1710.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [7h, Ah, 9h] *** Turn(Board): *** : [7h, Ah, 9h, 5h] *** River(Board): *** : [7h, Ah, 9h, 5h, 4s] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3420.00 friskyfit [10h, 6d] Ace high flush Win: 3420.00 puttypitty [Ks, Kd] Pair of kings Win: 0.00

[bigs]

Re: should I have shoved the flop? From my point of view, I would have folded UTG with that hand, your stack would still be in shape even if you folded! But you decided to see the flop, and should have shoved! I don't know if it would have made the difference since for the way the hand has been played, I suspect he would have called anyway to the flush draw....