playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

[robilaruk]

having been inspired by GaF's post elsewhere have decided to go back to STT's and play short handed turbo's - it is not going well this afternoon as I keep finding myself in these situations (see below) I am folding hand after hand after hand and the blinds get to stupid levels and the following hand happens - am interested to know if folks would shove like I have and also if they would make the same call the villian made against me? Honest answers please - as I need to get my head around these game formats :ok cheers Damo ***** Hand 743874657 ***** 100.00/200.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 06 September 2007 15:55:47 5 Player $5 NL Speed (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: dragon1953 (3160.00) Seat 2: guedinstap (3035.00) Seat 5: robilaruk (1305.00) dragon1953 post SB 100.00 guedinstap post BB 200.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [Jh, Qd] *** Bet Round 1 *** robilaruk All-in 1305.00 dragon1953 Fold guedinstap Call 1305.00 guedinstap [5d, Ad]

[PAULM03]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice What range of hands are you playing? Remember you don't get the time to sit about waiting for the premium hands, short handed I usually play any pocket pair, and any connectors or suited. You must also be aggressive on the flop as you'll haemmorhage chips if you let people push you off pots too easily. Not sure I'd have called with what he did, but I would have been tempted to shove with what you had. I started playing short handed again a few months ago (although not much turbo) and it really gave my game a new lease of life. With half the cards in play in the early stages I was a lot more confident about loosening up and playing a good range of hands, whereas I'd become obsessively tight playing full-handed and sort of forgotten how to play really. All in all I'd say short handed games (particularly turbo) suit a looser aggressive game. You will go on bad losing streaks as the variance is a bit more important but if you;re making the right decisions and staking properly you'll see them through no probs.

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice very tight early - for instance in the current game I am playing I have been dealt A10 UTG first hand and folded and hand 4 AJ with a 6BB raise and call in front - so I fold it seems that folks like any 2 suited and any 2 broadway early and you can't get them off their hands by raising with your AK for less that 8BB or so :eyes I am not an advocate of limping if first in the pot either, so if I have 22-77 UTG level 1-3 it is probably going in the muck as I would raise being first in get 2 callers, and unless I hit trips I will be behind on the flop Blinds at 50/100 I loosen up as hopefully folks will respect my raise which gives me a blind or 2 - and then pretty much shoving any hand at 100/200 if I play this help? Damo

What range of hands are you playing? Remember you don't get the time to sit about waiting for the premium hands, short handed I usually play any pocket pair, and any connectors or suited. You must also be aggressive on the flop as you'll haemmorhage chips if you let people push you off pots too easily. Not sure I'd have called with what he did, but I would have been tempted to shove with what you had. I started playing short handed again a few months ago (although not much turbo) and it really gave my game a new lease of life. With half the cards in play in the early stages I was a lot more confident about loosening up and playing a good range of hands, whereas I'd become obsessively tight playing full-handed and sort of forgotten how to play really. All in all I'd say short handed games (particularly turbo) suit a looser aggressive game. You will go on bad losing streaks as the variance is a bit more important but if you;re making the right decisions and staking properly you'll see them through no probs.

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice and this is also the type of hand I am struggling with - in a normal game with 10 min blinds I am checking here and hoping to hit, but with the blinds going up in a couple of hands time (and then again in about another 5 hands time) am I shoving? Castle has shite and will fold if i shove as he is just making up the BB 'cheaply', but will shortie fold and do I want to gamble with me probabaly being a 55/45 fav if he has some crap like 910 suited? Damo ***** Hand 743904998 ***** 100.00/200.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 06 September 2007 16:21:34 5 Player $5 NL Speed (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: LastCastle (2180.00) Seat 2: robilaruk (1920.00) Seat 3: dome83 (2570.00) Seat 5: tristan23 (830.00) LastCastle post SB 100.00 robilaruk post BB 200.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [5s, As] *** Bet Round 1 *** dome83 Fold tristan23 Call 200.00 LastCastle Call 200.00

[slapdash]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

All in all I'd say short handed games (particularly turbo) suit a looser aggressive game. You will go on bad losing streaks as the variance is a bit more important but if you;re making the right decisions and staking properly you'll see them through no probs.

Actually, I'm not convinced that the variance in short-handed STTs is much more than in full-table ones. In fact, I suspect the variance in the 5-seaters that I think Damo plays, with two places paid, is a bit less than in a 10-seater with three places paid.

[PAULM03]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

Actually, I'm not convinced that the variance in short-handed STTs is much more than in full-table ones. In fact, I suspect the variance in the 5-seaters that I think Damo plays, with two places paid, is a bit less than in a 10-seater with three places paid.

Really? Never sat down and worked it out to be honest, just a gut feeling that I have longer winning and losing streaks in these games.

very tight early - for instance in the current game I am playing I have been dealt A10 UTG first hand and folded and hand 4 AJ with a 6BB raise and call in front - so I fold it seems that folks like any 2 suited and any 2 broadway early and you can't get them off their hands by raising with your AK for less that 8BB or so :eyes I am not an advocate of limping if first in the pot either, so if I have 22-77 UTG level 1-3 it is probably going in the muck as I would raise being first in get 2 callers, and unless I hit trips I will be behind on the flop Blinds at 50/100 I loosen up as hopefully folks will respect my raise which gives me a blind or 2 - and then pretty much shoving any hand at 100/200 if I play this help?

Very tight is not going to work in a turbo. You're relying on getting premium hands early on to build up your stack so unless you see some you're always going to be under pressure. Then once you are under pressure and you pick up the premium hand even if you win it and double up you're STILL under pressure. I can only say what works for me, but early on whilst the blinds are small I'll play reasonably loosely, for instance I might call a 3xBB raise with A 10 off. Then I'll almost always bet the flop. Just try and see some flops cheaply. The structure is such that you have to try and accumulate chips early doors. No problems limping with small-mid PP, if you do hit trips it's a well disguised hand.

***** Hand 743904998 ***** 100.00/200.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 06 September 2007 16:21:34 5 Player $5 NL Speed (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: LastCastle (2180.00) Seat 2: robilaruk (1920.00) Seat 3: dome83 (2570.00) Seat 5: tristan23 (830.00) LastCastle post SB 100.00 robilaruk post BB 200.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [5s, As] *** Bet Round 1 *** dome83 Fold tristan23 Call 200.00 LastCastle Call 200.00

This is an easy check. Minimum bet the flop if last castle checks. Fold if you get raised. Check turn and river if no more action and see what everyone else has got.

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

Actually, I'm not convinced that the variance in short-handed STTs is much more than in full-table ones. In fact, I suspect the variance in the 5-seaters that I think Damo plays, with two places paid, is a bit less than in a 10-seater with three places paid.

as in you have a 40% chance to place rather than a 30% chance to place and because there are less hands out there to outdraw you because there are less players? Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice thanks Paul :ok - will read and inwardly digest - am interested to see what others think too. cheers Damo

Very tight is not going to work in a turbo. You're relying on getting premium hands early on to build up your stack so unless you see some you're always going to be under pressure. Then once you are under pressure and you pick up the premium hand even if you win it and double up you're STILL under pressure. I can only say what works for me, but early on whilst the blinds are small I'll play reasonably loosely, for instance I might call a 3xBB raise with A 10 off. Then I'll almost always bet the flop. Just try and see some flops cheaply. The structure is such that you have to try and accumulate chips early doors. No problems limping with small-mid PP, if you do hit trips it's a well disguised hand. This is an easy check. Minimum bet the flop if last castle checks. Fold if you get raised. Check turn and river if no more action and see what everyone else has got.

[slapdash]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

as in you have a 40% chance to place rather than a 30% chance to place

Yes, basically.

and because there are less hands out there to outdraw you because there are less players?

The variance on individual hands doesn't really affect the variance of your tournament winnings much. That only depends on your probability of finishing in each of the prize positions.

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

Yes, basically. quote] so you are more likely to place in a 5 seater than a 10 which reduces variance - however how much difference does the prize distribution make - 70/30 compared to 50/30/20 - majorly or not? am wondering because ias the prize distribution is poor in 5 seaters (you need to win a lot more than finish second)) compared to 10 seaters then surely there is better value in a 10 seat tounry despite the increased variance? and if so, and I want to maximise my hourly rate, am I better to play the 'normal' 8 min blind 10 seaters or go for the speed 3 min blinds as I can get more games in per hour in a 4 week period? is it possible to build a mathematically model showing profit/game/hour based on average finishes ITM against how long is approximately takes to finish say 20 mins for a 5 seat turbo 30 mins for a ten seat turbo and an hour for a normal 10 seater? just wondering?? cheers Damo

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice First hand is an easy shove with JQ. I maybe call too with the rag ace if I believe your range is what I would be playing in your position (I can call, lose and still have a chance....) I disagree with Paul to an extent - I can see what he's saying, but playing your M does seem to work, even though it is a turbo.... I effectively sit there and fold, fold, fold watching other players getting eliminated - I often find myself in the kind of position Damo describes - 1200 odd chips with 100/200 blinds and 3 players left - that's not an issue as you still seem able to make the money (and go on to win it) more often than you would expect.... I think that the stand of the others is so bad that this is profitable - against a higher quality opponent, it obviously doesn't work. In general, I think players are too loose and aggressive early and too tight and passive late - they dont seem to have the "gears" - I try to counter this by probably being too tight and passive early and too loose and aggressive late - not ideal poker, but if you're playing differently to the table, it can be a successful approach...

[PAULM03]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

I disagree with Paul to an extent - I can see what he's saying, but playing your M does seem to work, even though it is a turbo.... I effectively sit there and fold, fold, fold watching other players getting eliminated - I often find myself in the kind of position Damo describes - 1200 odd chips with 100/200 blinds and 3 players left - that's not an issue as you still seem able to make the money (and go on to win it) more often than you would expect.... I think that the stand of the others is so bad that this is profitable - against a higher quality opponent, it obviously doesn't work. In general, I think players are too loose and aggressive early and too tight and passive late - they dont seem to have the "gears" - I try to counter this by probably being too tight and passive early and too loose and aggressive late - not ideal poker, but if you're playing differently to the table, it can be a successful approach...

The other players at the table are obviously important. Sometimes you learn pretty early on in a game that you have to tighten up a little, other times you can be a little looser. I agree that people tend to get too tight and passive late on though, it's something that I try to take advantage of.

[viggosen]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice I think you have a very easy push with QJo with only 6,5 BB left, I would push with a lot worse hands. I think the main problem is your stack is so low compared with the others, that they can now call and lose and still not be in to bad shape, I think getting into a situation where you have less than half of the second smallest stack thats the real problem, I think that if you had any chance you should try to start moving all-in when you still have a stack so big that you will really cripple a guy thats call you and lose. So I I think that if you had any chance of moving first all-in with a hand, while you still had 1500 -2000 left you should have done it, almost regardless of your cards.

[aimar21]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice I used to play at the same tables (5$ 5-seater turbos) but even though I was successful, I turned back to 10-seater normal tables because IMO 3 minutes blind structure is too fast.. I would definitely push with QJ but I think stack and position moves are better in these games. this may sound really silly to you but at those tables I didn't look at my hole cards in push-fold mode (under 10xbb), I always checked the situation first and if the time was right, I pushed without hesitation.. If not, I would look at my cards and fold them if they were not 88+ AT+.. By "time was right", I mean, my image (pushing sequence if there is such a term in English :lol), remaining opponents' stacks (not too small not too big), my stack (not too small), and of course if they are noted as obvious calling stations (f.e. I saw him call 10xbb when he shouldn't have with 95 and beat KK which happened to me today).. This way you don't get to have a low stack and when that monster arrives you eliminate somebody or double up(or the situation above happens but hopefully not)..I know you probably know these but still thought it might help.. Edit : and of course position.. from SB if I've not been pushing all day I'm definitely pushing ATC..

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice Thanks for all the replies so far:ok what has suprised me is that folks are saying they would call for a third of their stack with A5 on the bubble (the first hand scenario). I just think that is really loose from a pot odds point of view (barely 1.5:1) and the fact that you may double up shortie to a decent stack when folding gains them only the blinds (which they will paying again very soon). with A5 you are (generally) at best a 55/45 fav even if shortie has Ace 4/3/2 because you are probabaly going to split the pot (depends on suits - suited A5 vs no suited A2 is about 58/42 I think). personally I would never make the call with A5 in that situation if I was the big stack for a third of my stack, but it is VERY interesting that others would - I need to think through my shoving strategy more - cheers this has been really helpful :ok Thanks all Damo

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

with A5 you are (generally) at best a 55/45 fav even if shortie has Ace 4/3/2 because you are probabaly going to split the pot (depends on suits - suited A5 vs no suited A2 is about 58/42 I think).

To be calling with A5, he has to put you on virtually any hand - so to call there must be some evidence that you will shove with almost anything. Against a random hand (yes, I COULD be shoving with 23o there in your position in some situations) you are a 57% fav. A5 will remain a favourite if you shove with top 50% of hands. A5 continues to have the pure odds to call if you shove with just top 15% of hands (Which incidentally is about where QJo falls). If your range is bigger than top 15% of hands (it obviously is) then A5 has the pure odds to call. The larger your range the higher his positive ev (in Tourney chips) Having looked at those numbers, it seems a clearer call to me than I initially thought.....

[robilaruk]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice assuming I have no ace and no PP higher than a 5 he will always have the odds to call my point is how loose IMO the call actually is - why call for another 1100 with A5 when you can fold and let shortie have a blind and half which he is paying in the next two hands - essentially you are 'coin flipping' (I hate that phrase!) and if you get the wrong side of the coin you put yourself under pressure - he would have about 1700 left if he calls and misses and I have 2700 - so essentially we have swapped places - so now I can fold a blind or two and he can't really. I just think that calling with A5 in this situation for 40% of his remaining stack is very loose and a poor play and one I wouldn't make (and I call and raise with loads of crap!), maybe its me but the risk-to-reward is not enough for me. I understand your point about is being +ev from a strictly matematicaly point, but not from a 'what might actually happen and what are the consequences' point of view Just my thoughts and thanks :ok Damo

To be calling with A5, he has to put you on virtually any hand - so to call there must be some evidence that you will shove with almost anything. Against a random hand (yes, I COULD be shoving with 23o there in your position in some situations) you are a 57% fav. A5 will remain a favourite if you shove with top 50% of hands. A5 continues to have the pure odds to call if you shove with just top 15% of hands (Which incidentally is about where QJo falls). If your range is bigger than top 15% of hands (it obviously is) then A5 has the pure odds to call. The larger your range the higher his positive ev (in Tourney chips) Having looked at those numbers, it seems a clearer call to me than I initially thought.....

[slapdash]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

A5 continues to have the pure odds to call if you shove with just top 15% of hands (Which incidentally is about where QJo falls).

I made it about top 12% on pure pot odds (did you remember the A5 was suited?) I did the ICM calculation, and according to the figures for tournament equity that ICM gives, he needs odds of about 43.43% to call (compared to about 40.77% if you use pure pot odds), which -- coincidentally -- does correspond to a call being +EV if your range is wider than about top 15%.

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice These games are top heavy though - you want to win, not just limp into 2nd - if you have a positive ev opportunity, the chance to eliminate an opponent and go into the HU with a chip lead..... It's a short handed turbo - I'm not waiting for a premium pocket pair.... Am just going to play a few on Virgin if anyone want to join me (pl---Gaf) - intention is to play $30, but if anyone wants to play lower, I'm happy to :ok

[staffy]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice Might join you in a bit Gaf. Just finishing a game off at the mo.

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice I'm in one, but will play 2 at a time - so let me know where and when :ok

[staffy]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice just sit in next empty table and ill join. go easy though normally play 10 seater normal speed lol

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

I made it about top 12% on pure pot odds (did you remember the A5 was suited?)

I didn't work it out that exactly ;) Just found an answer that was "near enough" to illustrate the point ;)

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice There's 2 $30 speed tables - I've joined an empty one :ok

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice First hand - ATs UTG -I folded - I know that's ridiculously tight, but I just dont want to get involved with it.... gl Staffy :ok

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice ul staffy - presume you had a 5 with 5588 on the board?

[staffy]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice no mate. I had JK. SO paired the initial J

[staffy]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice ouch Gaf. Unlucky mate.

[GaF]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice

ouch Gaf. Unlucky mate.

Against the same guy twice :sad Those two players were so tight though, how many chips did I pick up without a showdown? Loads!! (I didn't have AA every time I raised :tongue2)

[staffy]

Re: playing short handed turbo STT's - general strategy advice you were very unlucky. I much prefer 10 seater games TBH. Any1 up for a 10 seater.