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Keep the pot small or try and take it down?


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A contrived situation..... You are in the small blind in a cash game or early in a tournament (i.e. no time pressure).....you have a decent hand that is probably best now, but that doesn't play well after the flop......something like 99 or TT ..... there are multiple limpers before you ...... what is your primary objective? 1) Keep the pot small as you will be out of position after the flop (so call) or 2) Bet Big to try and take down the pot now because you are out of position after the flop - you almost certainly have the best hand and you should bet when you are ahead!!

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? Just testing boundaries here :tongue2 What about 99/TT with just one limper..... I presume you'd raise (depending on players of course) ..... how many limpers before you switch from playing it as a made hand, to playing it as a drawing hand?

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

Just testing boundaries here :tongue2 What about 99/TT with just one limper..... I presume you'd raise (depending on players of course) ..... how many limpers before you switch from playing it as a made hand, to playing it as a drawing hand?
While I think about that one .... I had a similar scenario tonight although I was in cutoff not SB - My Hand &* !"- 1 limper, so I raised 8*BB The Button and BB both called the limper folded. What I knew about the players from my game time screen. Button VP$IP 30-40% - Showing Small Profit on night BB VP$IP 60-70% - Biggest loser on table tonight Flop comes
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? You mean the BB checks I presume, not the button :loon I bet out with a continuation bet - 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot ...... I raised pre flop, so now I try and represent AK..... Not sure this is a similar situation though - in the cut off your position post flop is very different to in the small blind....

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

You are in the small blind in a cash game or early in a tournament (i.e. no time pressure).....you have a decent hand that is probably best now, but that doesn't play well after the flop......something like 99 or TT ..... there are multiple limpers before you ...... what is your primary objective? 1) Keep the pot small as you will be out of position after the flop (so call)
Call everytime with deep stacks. Reraise with QQ though for sure, JJ its up to you
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

You mean the BB checks I presume, not the button :loon I bet out with a continuation bet - 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot ...... I raised pre flop, so now I try and represent AK..... Not sure this is a similar situation though - in the cut off your position post flop is very different to in the small blind....
No I agree its not same in the cutoff - But great minds think alike - i actually put in a 2/3 pot sized bet and they both folded
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

A contrived situation..... You are in the small blind in a cash game or early in a tournament (i.e. no time pressure).....you have a decent hand that is probably best now, but that doesn't play well after the flop......something like 99 or TT ..... there are multiple limpers before you ...... what is your primary objective? 1) Keep the pot small as you will be out of position after the flop (so call) or 2) Bet Big to try and take down the pot now because you are out of position after the flop - you almost certainly have the best hand and you should bet when you are ahead!!
I havn't been playing long GAF but I like the second scenario. TT is the fifth best hand preflop is it not? And one would assume the multiple limpers would have raised with AA-KK-QQ-JJ. As you stated "you have a decent hand that is probably best now, but that doesn't play well after the flop"...If it doesn't play well after the flop then you have to try and win it preflop...Depending on what the limpers stacks were, i would raise enough to try and entice as many limpers as possible to fold, or have only heads up action at least. I don't like the idea of checking or calling to see a flop, cos it also gives the limpers a chance to see a flop too...If an AKQJ, or any combination of them come out on the flop, any one of the limpers could have one of these and your tens are now losing, and if you are first to bet then what do you do?...Of course you may flop a 10 and be sitting pretty, not sure what the odds of that are, but with only 2 tens left I assume around 10/1 or something. As you said, best hand preflop, so win it preflop...I guess it would all depend on chip size, but assuming average chip size and multiple limpers, be a compulsory raise for me with TT on small blind to try and take down the pot or reduce the players in the pot...If a player was not prepared to raise with TT after multiple limpers with only a BB to follow, what hand would they be waiting for to raise with? AA-KK-QQ-JJ? It does mean you would be out of position after the flop, but hopefully you would have less people to play against, and rasing shows people you have some type of hand, only the players with strength will call, the rest will fold...Then you have some idea of what type of hand they have and can act accordingly. That's my thoughts anyways :cheers
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? You are right - TT is only losing to the 4 hands that you mention.... The problem in poker though is that you not only need to be ahead, but you also need to know that you are ahead ...... If you bet big and take it down, great, you get the 4 or so Big Blinds in the pot - that's a good result :ok If however you bet big and are called by one or more opponents, the flop comes down and normally there will be at least one overcard ..... now where are you? You are first to act .....do you bet? If you don't, you are showing weakness and someone else will bet and push you out of the pot, even if you are best ....... if you do bet, then you are now committing a lot of money to a pot where you are probably nowhere near 5th best hand..... The problem with a big preflop bet is that you stand to win a little, but hen you get action, you stand to lose a lot in finding out where you are....

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? Fully agreed GAF :ok I was probably only thinking about betting between 3 to 5 times the BB. Once the bet is down then I am committed to following it through...If I think I am beat, I would lay down my cards...As i am learning over here, there are many vagaries with Poker, and learning from my mistakes everytime I play. I like your last line about stand to win a low pot preflop, but lose a lot postflop...Can certainly end up that way...My philosophy is if you have the cards play them, get too many crap cards as it is...As long as you are consistent and play when the percentages are in your favour, then the rest should take care of itself :dude Say i raised to 3 times the BB...If I called preflop, called turn and called river, I would be betting 3 BB anyways wouldn't I? I guess it would depend to some extent on the people who are on the table...If there were calling machines then it may be a risk, as they will simply call...If table is tight then better chance of getting them to fold...If i have an image of someone who has strength when I raise, then people may fold too. Guess it comes down to the intricasies of the table, but you have summed it up well with what you said. Great thread :ok

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

You are right - TT is only losing to the 4 hands that you mention.... The problem in poker though is that you not only need to be ahead, but you also need to know that you are ahead ...... If you bet big and take it down, great, you get the 4 or so Big Blinds in the pot - that's a good result :ok If however you bet big and are called by one or more opponents, the flop comes down and normally there will be at least one overcard ..... now where are you? You are first to act .....do you bet? If you don't, you are showing weakness and someone else will bet and push you out of the pot, even if you are best ....... if you do bet, then you are now committing a lot of money to a pot where you are probably nowhere near 5th best hand..... The problem with a big preflop bet is that you stand to win a little, but hen you get action, you stand to lose a lot in finding out where you are....
if you check/raise as often as you bet out, people dont like betting after you check:clap
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? Why do you feel the need to put so many chips in? You're not committed, you're only in for the small blind, so it's costing you half the blind to try and catch a monster, and since you're checking first, you'll be overlooked for strength on the first round of betting. I think i recall with JJ, there is a 67% chance of an overcard on the flop. Now i believe JJ is a very good hand to raise with, but when talking about these more average hands that are more 50/50's or less, i tend to try other moves. My preferred strategy when out of position with a pocketpair, up to 99 (and at a push TT) ill just limp if the conditions are right. There must be 5 or more players (4 or less and ill raise) where preferably all of them have more than 10BB remaining behind them. There is just over 12% chance for you to flop a set with a pocket pair, so a check raise will snatch a lot of chips without much risk to losing the hand. Someone said above that TT is the 5th best hand preflop in poker, agreed yeah, but there's more than 4 hands capable of calling your raise and being in a virtual cointoss; AA KK QQ JJ AK AQ AJ KQ KJ QJ, thats 10 possible hands where it can go either way; now lets not forget this is online poker too, so you're getting donks calling your raises with A3 K7 Q9 etc..., so there will be a lot of cards to dodge to hold up as favourite if you dont hit that set when you raise. I do like to play quite cautious but in a sneaky way, get my chips in when i know i got some big %'s backing up my cards and play the game crafty. I think it's just too easy to burn away chips when you raise first off. This happens alot; raise oop with decent high pair - called - you think you have to follow through so another 1/2-2/3 pot bet followed by an all-in on the otherside and you've lost probably 10-20% of your chips.

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

You are in the small blind in a cash game or early in a tournament (i.e. no time pressure).....you have a decent hand that is probably best now' date=' but that doesn't play well after the flop......something like 99 or TT .....[/quote'] I had a very similar situation yesterday. The difference was that I was in the BB with TT, and multiple limpers before me. I limped and immediately kicked myself for doing so, as I'd been playing tight and aggressive prior to that (i.e. fold/raise). The pot came 78J rainbow. The SB folded, I bet about 3/4 the pot and everyone folded to UTG who doubled my bet, the Button called his bet and I folded. (This was the 4th time in an hour I'd been in a pot with the UTG player. Each time he'd folded when I raised.) UTG and the Button played out the hand and it turned out UTG had 9To and won the pot. The Button had A8s. I keep wondering if I'd have bet out to start with, whether UTG would have called... I think he proabably would have. Who knows??? Next time I have TT in the blinds, with only limpers before me, I'm raising. I believe at that time I have the best hand and that's the time to get the money in.
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? Cheers Jimany - your comments make a lot of sense :ok Two things I'd slightly disagree with though .... I'd be reasonably happy to limp with fewer than 4 opponents (EVEN maybe with just one limper), if they had 20xBB in their stacks. Also, if I hit trips, not sure I'd check raise .... that SCREAMS "monster" to my opponents - I feel I can get paid more by raising straight out .... the range of hands I can bet with are far larger than the range of hands I would check raise with .... an opponent with a mediocre hand would likely pay more "to find out where he is" to a bet than a check raise..... I'm guessing that what you say would be more applicable/profitable in a Limit game ...... would I be right in guessing that you are more of a limit player than no limit? Tom - the limp is fine, SO LONG as you are prepared to let the hand go after the flop if there are overcards and you have not hit your set ..... with multiple limpers, there is every probability that someone has a lone Jack or something else that has you beat (straight or 2 pair). I'm assuming that this was a cash game and you were deep stacked? Lets say you had raised pre flop ..... had 2 callers ...... you're still not liking that flop and assuming you are behind.......and out of position.......you bet into it and you're starting to play a big pot with a hand that is probably behind.....

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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

SO LONG as you are prepared to let the hand go after the flop if there are overcards and you have not hit your set
That quote pretty much sums up my thoughts on this subject.
Also, if I hit trips, not sure I'd check raise .... that SCREAMS "monster" to my opponents - I feel I can get paid more by raising straight out
Understand where you come from with this, but my main fear from betting out is, if you get 3 or 4 callers, you might have alot of scare cards to avoid. Now, its your turn to bet out... The reason i like the checkraise in this situation and why i use it more often is that i have the final say in the first round of betting, ill usually make this twice or thrice the bet (depending on how many callers & potential callers) to let them think they're getting value with their hand. One nice move i love doing though, is when it is raised preflop, and we have callers, and you call with your small pair and flop a set on an A, K or Q high board, when you check, and the raiser bets out, im putting him on top pair with a strong kicker, if you minraise him, alot of the time, they get quite "insulted" at your raise and come over the top of you, works more than you think :nana
I'm guessing that what you say would be more applicable/profitable in a Limit game ...... would I be right in guessing that you are more of a limit player than no limit?
I've read through limit sections on some books i have, and the game does seem to suit me, but i just dont go for it, not online at least (and i havent played it live yet). Basically main reason is if i want to protect my hand, i cant, i can minraise it, but whose going to fold with any half decent hand when theyre getting 10-1+ odds? My game is 7 card Stud High :) Edit: oops just realised you said "Limit Game" and not "Limit Hold'Em", yes you are correct lol. I do rather like PL & NL deepstacked games for the potential winnings though.
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down?

Tom - the limp is fine' date=' SO LONG as you are prepared to let the hand go after the flop if there are overcards and you have not hit your set ..... with multiple limpers, there is every probability that someone has a lone Jack or something else that has you beat (straight or 2 pair). I'm assuming that this was a cash game and you were deep stacked? Lets say you had raised pre flop ..... had 2 callers ...... you're still not liking that flop and assuming you are behind.......and out of position.......you bet into it and you're starting to play a big pot with a hand that is probably behind.....[/quote'] In the current issue of WPT Poker magazine they ask exactly the same question. Their advice mirrors your own GaF... they suggest limping to see the flop, hoping to end up as either top pair or trips. BTW can I ask you'd play a hand such as TT in late position, say in the Cut-Off rather than the Button, if someone before you had raised to 3xBB? Would you call, or would it be a straight fold? (I realise that to some extent this depends on the player who raised, how tight they are, etc)
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Re: Keep the pot small or try and take it down? I'm glad WPT mag come up to my standards :lol :lol :lol :tongue2 If stacks are big enough, then I'm more than happy to call a raise with a mid pair from any position if I believe I will see a flop and if I believe I will get paid off enough if I hit... Here's a particularly nice example from my DB - I'm in the BB with 88 and face a pre flop raise from KK .... I happily see the flop ... a terrible flop for KK, but he cant lay down his overpair - I bet aggressively and he gives me his entire stack...... Had the 8 not come on the flop, I would have check folded and waved goodbye to my $2 limp....

Table Signature Collection Perdomo (Real Money) Seat 8 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 10: Telepe ( $65.15 ) Seat 1: KeyAAA ( $50 ) (sitout) Seat 2: Ron505 ( $28.99 ) Seat 3: buthcher ( $57.55 ) Seat 4: TErnst ( $68.5 ) Seat 5: santry5 ( $31.59 ) Seat 6: andiwins ( $50 ) Seat 7: XKARLI ( $49.55 ) Seat 8: potsy7 ( $33.22 ) Seat 9: kINgrAT9 ( $55.05 ) kINgrAT9 posts small blind [$0.25]. Telepe posts big blind [$0.5]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Telepe [ 8c 8s ] Ron505 folds. buthcher folds. TErnst raises [$2]. santry5 folds. andiwins folds. XKARLI folds. potsy7 folds. kINgrAT9 folds. Telepe calls [$1.5]. ** Dealing Flop ** [ 10s, 9s, 8h ] Telepe bets [$4]. TErnst raises [$10]. Telepe raises [$25]. TErnst goes All-in [$56.5]. Telepe goes All-in [$34.15]. ** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ] Telepe shows [ 8c 8s ]. TErnst shows [ Kc Kh ]. ** Dealing River ** [ 3d ] ** Summary ** Telepe shows [ 8c 8s ]. Telepe collected [$126.55]. TErnst collected [$3.35]. TErnst leaves
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