HU question

[robilaruk]

okay whats my play suprisingly I have no reads yet as this is the first hand Damo Hand #400197255 at table: Heads up $10 NL Started: Wed Aug 23 21:40:12 2006 loddel is at seat 1 with 1485.00 LizziePL is at seat 2 with 1470.00 LizziePL posts the large blind 30.00 loddel posts the small blind 15.00 LizziePL: 9c, 9h loddel: --, -- Pre-flop: loddel: Call 30.00 LizziePL: Raise 120.00 loddel: Call 120.00 Flop (Board: 2s, Ks, 7c): LizziePL: Bet 90.00 loddel: Raise 180.00

[Tax_Monkey]

Re: HU question Ok I'll have a go at this (and probably be wrong again :lol) I'd say you've asked the question and been given an answer so in the bin it goes given the fact you have no other indication than his betting folding is the prudent choice.

[Rookie]

Re: HU question I feel that this is one of those situations where Calling is Defenitly the wrong decision. Its either Fold or Raise. So what would i do? Since its early and we still have lots of chips, I want to learn something about my apponent and i'd Re-Raise! If he RE-Raises AGAIN then id fold. You only bet 90 into a 300 pot so he might be trying to steal the pot from you. Your RE-RAISE might actually buy you a free card if you decide to check on the Turn, because he might fear another Re-raise if he bets.

[guesswest]

Re: HU question This would be the textbook move to make on a draw, raising to check for a free card if the turn misses. It's possible it's something else but 9 times out of 10 it's the flush draw. It's possible it's a clever move to incite a reraise but I wouldn't work on that basis against an unknown player. I'd call this tho not reraise, then I'd bet out on the turn if it doesn't make the draw - you're much more likely to get a fold then for a bettable amount with only one card to come. Also bear in mind there's a great likelihood that even if your opponent is on the draw, based on the pre-flop raise it's very likely they have overcards, which would make them almost even with your nines. Bearing in mind the high probability of getting the fold on the turn compared to the decent likelihood of getting a call with even a large flop bet, and all the trouble it'll cause in terms of not knowing where you stand and getting pot committed on a weak hand, I much prefer a call here with an intention of betting out if the flush doesn't hit the turn.

[teaulc]

Re: HU question no brainer for me and that is probably down to my inexperience,but i would fold,,,he/she has options of either being 1 card from flush or has hit the king on the flop with reasonable kicker,,just my opinion if i`m reading it right

[mrmuzeman]

Re: HU question Guesswest makes good points altho imo its nowhere near 9/10 he has the draw here. I see min raise move with top pair quite a lot and also a lot with very strong hands like sets. Proceed with caution here and it sucks being out of position here. I guess its worth a call but its a pretty dodgy situation. Your problems I think stem somewhat from your weak flop bet though (Im not having a go just cos of the other thread though mate im being honest!). I dont really know what that sort of weak bet really achieves. Id probly stick a good 200 out there on this flop. If he raises that bet then thats pretty strong and id lay down. By betting a good amount you have a very decent chance hell just fold and you win the pot.

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question thanks everyone for the replies so far quick question if he has a king how good a kicker has he got? and if it a good kicker why didn't he raise PF? and if its a weak kicker and not good enough to raise with then why call a raise PF? just wondering Damo

[teaulc]

Re: HU question

thanks everyone for the replies so far quick question if he has a king how good a kicker has he got? and if it a good kicker why didn't he raise PF? and if its a weak kicker and not good enough to raise with then why call a raise PF? just wondering Damo

mmmm, i would probably put him/her on K/9,why?..an outside chance of hitting the straight knowing what sort of flops come down early on in tourneys,,but hey what do i know???:lol

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question not sure about the raise with trips - if I have missed its going in the bin, so why raise, why not just call and use your position to get another bet on the turn? people generally don't raise with trips as it is such a powerful hand HU - he has to be fairly positive I have a K for this to work or me willing to still call with my Ax weak bet? the problem is that 8-10% of my stack is in the middle with the raise - if I make a pot bet and he shoves I have lost close to a third of my stack - a probe bet should win it for me if he called with Q9 or 10 9 or A small for instance without risking too much - tho I take your point that it is perhaps too little, a bet of 120 would have been better (hey no worries about the other thread - I post HH here for the critiscism:ok and I have ID a leak, make it 120 next time) Damo

Guesswest makes good points altho imo its nowhere near 9/10 he has the draw here. I see min raise move with top pair quite a lot and also a lot with very strong hands like sets. Proceed with caution here and it sucks being out of position here. I guess its worth a call but its a pretty dodgy situation. Your problems I think stem somewhat from your weak flop bet though (Im not having a go just cos of the other thread though mate im being honest!). I dont really know what that sort of weak bet really achieves. Id probly stick a good 200 out there on this flop. If he raises that bet then thats pretty strong and id lay down. By betting a good amount you have a very decent chance hell just fold and you win the pot.

[guesswest]

Re: HU question I just can't put him on a King here. Am probably gonna look like an idiot when you tell us that's what he had, but it's just not consistent with anything he's done. The only way I can imagine him having a king is if he has two of them and had some kind of anxiety attack about not running into a fold first hand. It's not just the pre-flop action but the minimum raise too, top pair is a strong hand heads up but he's unlikely to be milking you with it. Edit: K7 is a possibility actually the more I think of it. But it and 222 are literally the only hands that I can think of he'd play this way other than a flush draw, and if he has either of those hands he's playing them badly - so I'd definitely be working on the basis that he's on the draw.

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question K9 is a powerful hand HU, one that needs raising with, not calling with and what hand would I raise with - Ax, KQ-K10, any pair - all hands that K9 are losing to - of course I could just be protecting my BB on the first hand, but that would be silly I cannot see him not raising if he has K9+ that would be silly He might call a PF raise with K6 and below, but he would be mad to do so which leave K7 K8 - has he got one of theses hands? dunno - and the m/r is also a silly bet, if i am drawing Ax suited, I am calling! I just think this m/r is very very odd Damo

mmmm' date=' i would probably put him/her on K/9,why?..an outside chance of hitting the straight knowing what sort of flops come down early on in tourneys,,but hey what do i know???:lol[/quote']

[mrmuzeman]

Re: HU question To be fair here (with the hand analysis) I am speaking from a perspective of being HU in a full ring cash game pot cos thats where I play almost all my poker. Seriously though beware the min raiser! So often a strong hand although i agree in this particular circumstance it could easily be a draw or even a bit of a bluff. On the bet size subject, yeah you dont have to be pot here. I always think when I make a bet with a good hand etc that I just pretend the draws are out there. It encourages good betting. Just assume for the purposes of your bet he has a flush draw, so you want to be betting 2/3 pot at least. This way you get value on your good hands when they call and you can never make a mistake of allowing a draw in cheap. I dont like probe betting or betting for information and such things like that really, just not my style. If I were to make such a type of bet I would bet 1/2 the pot. Thered have to be some weird reason for me to ever bet less than half the pot. So yeah the 120 fits the bill there.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: HU question

I cannot see him not raising if he has K9+ that would be silly He might call a PF raise with K6 and below, but he would be mad to do so which leave K7 K8 - has he got one of theses hands? dunno - and the m/r is also a silly bet, if i am drawing Ax suited, I am calling! I just think this m/r is very very odd

A key thing to remember here is who your playing. You dont have a clue, its a fairly cheap internet game, he could be a complete beginner really. All your points are true of decent players but if hes not a decent player (which is a pretty big chance) then I dont think theres too much need to get too specific with this. Always good to think of what your up against for sure. But tbh you just see poor play all the time, if he has a King I wouldnt be suprised to see AK or crap like K2 sooooted!

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question agreed but working on the principle that one K is already gone - what are the chances of him holding another? Damo

A key thing to remember here is who your playing. You dont have a clue' date=' its a fairly cheap internet game, he could be a complete beginner really. All your points are true of decent players but if hes not a decent player (which is a pretty big chance) then I dont think theres too much need to get too specific with this. Always good to think of what your up against for sure. But tbh you just see poor play all the time, if he has a King I wouldnt be suprised to see AK or crap like K2![/quote']

[teaulc]

Re: HU question i was probably thinking K/9 suited and has hit it either way on flop and trying to make some extra chips,cos if he went all-in you would fold and he is thinking why do i want him to go all in

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question okay - I can see your reasoning now - thanks

i was probably thinking K/9 suited and has hit it either way on flop and trying to make some extra chips' date='cos if he went all-in you would fold and he is thinking why do i want him to go all in[/quote']

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question what I thought was this - he thinks I have raised with Ax QJ or something similar and have missed the flop (maybe the 90 bet told him that?) so i discount the K but am concerned about the flush draw so i call to see the turn and this happens - now what? Turn (Board: 2s, Ks, 7c, 3c): LizziePL: Check loddel: Bet 360.00

[guesswest]

Re: HU question I have no idea what he has now. You should have bet the turn, and strongly. He almost certainly wouldn't play a flush draw to a decent turn bet so if you got a reraise, or even a call (if you bet enough), you'd know you were behind. Since he has position and bearing in mind the pot size this move could be anything from a stone-cold bluff, underpair, to any number of big hands. I'd have to lay this because now I have insufficient information, a weak hand, and I'm getting pot commited - but I'd be laying it with the knowledge that there is an entirely legitimate possibility I'm ahead.

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question Cheers GW I still can't put him on a K - my concern is the 2 flush draws now! I am tempted to shove here - what do folks think? Damo

I have no idea what he has now. You should have bet the turn' date=' and strongly. He almost certainly wouldn't play a flush draw to a decent turn bet so if you got a reraise, or even a call (if you bet enough), you'd know you were behind. Since he has position and bearing in mind the pot size this move could be anything from a stone-cold bluff, underpair, to any number of big hands. I'd have to lay this because now I have insufficient information, a weak hand, and I'm getting pot commited - but I'd be laying it with the knowledge that there is an entirely legitimate possibility I'm ahead.[/quote']

[guesswest]

Re: HU question If you do choose to play it I'd say shoving is your only real option. Sorry to monopolise this thread with loads of posts! Just finding this hand very interesting.

[teaulc]

Re: HU question mmmmmmmm,,have got no idea now,,,think maybe i will stick with my original thoughts, wrong as they may be....but as i would have folded by now..................i hope your not gonna keep us in too much suspense

[Valiant23]

Re: HU question I can't help but think that the villain is on A7, and as such I'd be prepared to take him on, and I think a shove here would get called. I'd also be prepared to be totally wrong and give myself a kicking.

[robilaruk]

Re: HU question well fearing the flush I chose to call and see the river Once the river card hit I realised that I had played this entire hand like a fish - I didn't really know where I was and what he had - I was certain it wasn't a King, but no idea in the slightest what he actually did have - so i thought about it and checked and he shoved :sad I felt like a muppet:$ - apart from PF I had completely misplayed this hand, especially on the turn and now he was taking advantage. So i went back to my original read of him making his move on the flop believing that I had missed and that he could steal the pot on the flop with the min raise. I then wondered why would he shove now? if he had his King why shove? I had made two calls and he still shoves? I cannot believe the 2nd 3 has helped him, is he shoving his busted flush draw and hoping I missed to? completely perplexed I just called - mainly because I didn't have him on a King and partly out of curiosity to see what he had been playing and whether I had been a complete fish all along:unsure River (Board: 2s, Ks, 7c, 3c, 3h): LizziePL: Check loddel: All in LizziePL: All in Showdown: loddel shows: Qs, 2d (two pair, Threes and Deuces) LizziePL shows: 9c, 9h (two pair, Nines and Threes) Mainpot: LizziePL wins the pot of 3000 with two pair, Nines and Threes as it turned out he didn't have a King and I won, but i still feel like I really bolloxed this hand up post flop :$ Interestingly when i was searching through the HH to post the turn play, I dicovered I had played him before! (and I didn't have any notes on him)and I beat him then, in about 10 hands - it seems that he is the big fish with me swimming around after him as well, not as a shark, but as bait for him to nibble at - I can't believe I played this hand sooooooooo badly, its really shocking Thanks for all the input - the great thing about posting this, is that I have reviewed some HH and saw patterns emerging about my play and others - hopefully I will get my fishy play fixed somewhat:ok Damo

[Valiant23]

Re: HU question

but i still feel like I really bolloxed this hand up post flop :$

Why? I've had similar experiences to this one, where my read has been none existent, and I've been totally perplexed as to what the other guy had. In fact that google video where Dan Nagreanu laid down the best hand to Todd Brunson's bluff is how I've felt sometimes, then as you did above I've had to call for my own sanity more than any other reason, only to discover I was being bluffed at. In fact I'm almost happy to lose the hand if that happens, just to learn something. Online we only have our knowledge of the cards, our player notes (if used), and the trust in our own ability. One of the easiest reads, and one given away by players who think they are good is when they represent the best hand on the flop, and bet it and get called. Then on the turn a better possible hand is out there, and they try to represent that as well. Same on the river. I've trusted my cards and my ability to see this play quite often. Sometimes I get it wrong, but who doesn't?