Limping for a minor amount on the SB

[robilaruk]

Hi Folks I got a bit of a roasting here:sad http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31625 for limping 35 off against only the BB for 25 chips:ok So just wondering what people would limp with at early levels if you have a decent stack? Damo :cheers

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB Why limp with anything? Just raise it up to make it 'important' or chuck it.

[GaF]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB I agree with Mr I. I remember in a PL game recently, there were 4 or 5 callers before my SB and someone (can't remember who) expressed surprise when I folded and quoted the odds - my point is that after the flop I am out of position and don't want to get involved with hands that will possibly get me into trouble and hardley ever hit hard enough that I can be really confident I am in front. I will limp with hands that have a chance of becoming the nuts - suited connectors, Suited Aces pocket pairs ..... but something like ATo, even with decent odds, early I'll chuck, because there wont be many flops I'll hit hard enough to really like.......

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB pot odds? Damo

Why limp with anything? Just raise it up to make it 'important' or chuck it.

[Valiant23]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB Funnily enough I limp less in the early stages than I should being truthful. Its difficult assimilating a rock style thats needed (imo) for the early part of a 10-seater, with spunking chips with say Q 10os...

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

pot odds? Damo

I generally think "tournament strategy" is more important that pot odds. Also especially after the flop pot odds are greater misused and early in a tournament it's not worth messing around.

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB MTT's are a different kettle of fish - more players, longer game, more variance (I assume you mean a MTT) so yes chuck the crap I am specifically asking about STT's, shorter game, less chips, less variance, easier to figure out how good your hand is and what +EV it has If everyone limps the first hand and it only costs another 15 to call into a pot of 270, then people are folding every time even though you are getting 18-1 for their money? (assuming the BB doesn't raise - lets say he is sitting out to make it easier) No one is calling in this situation? Damo

I agree with Mr I. I remember in a PL game recently, there were 4 or 5 callers before my SB and someone (can't remember who) expressed surprise and quoted the odds - my point is that after the flop I am out of position and don't want to get involved with hands that will possibly get me into trouble and hardley ever hit hard enough that I can be really confident I am in front. I will limp with hands that have a chance of becoming the nuts - suited connectors, Suited Aces pocket pairs ..... but something like ATo, even with decent odds, early I'll chuck, because there wont be many flops I'll hit hard enough to really like.......

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB tourny strategy - whats that then? Damo

I generally think "tournament strategy" is more important that pot odds. Also especially after the flop pot odds are greater misused and early in a tournament it's not worth messing around.

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB STT's even more so, as there's no need to build up a massive amount of chips.

If everyone limps the first hand and it only costs another 15 to call into a pot of 270, then people are folding every time even though you are getting 18-1 for their money? (assuming the BB doesn't raise - lets say he is sitting out to make it easier) No one is calling in this situation?

Not a chance. I'm either raising (quite a bit if I've got a hand) or more likely folding. You're getting great odds but there's a reason for that?:ok I'm not interested in how likely you are to win the hand - but how likely are you to hit something that you think will be ahead?:unsure

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB is that 'rock' style for your benefit or others? I ask because I wonder how many other players are actually paying attention? I am not saying splurge chips with q 10 when the flop is A K 10 and its sodding obvious that muppet UTG+1 has limp called with his A2o and bets 120 and muppet on the button has K8 and calls for 120...... :eyes I am trying to figure out why folks don't limp call for a single blind, or if they would, how much of a pot they would limp call in the SB with (i.e. what the minimum pot odds required are to play) Ta Damo

Funnily enough I limp less in the early stages than I should being truthful. Its difficult assimilating a rock style thats needed (imo) for the early part of a 10-seater' date=' with spunking chips with say Q 10os...[/quote']

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

tourny strategy - whats that then? Damo

I put it is "" cos I don't think I can explain it very well:lol. I guess I'm just trying to say that in a tournament stages of survival or gaining chips are more important than pot/implied odds:unsure

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB confusing me here - you wont call because the pot odds are so great and there must be a reason? thats the time you WANT to call, when it is cheap - you don't want to be calling when you are getting an even money bet and your hand is a 2:1 dog isn't your second point the same, you hit your hand and are ahead, which means you are probably (barring being outdrawn) going to win the hand? (or am I completely missing the point?) I am not asking about a hand worth raising with (with 6/8 limpers I would need KK or AA to raise with) I am asking about 2 random cards and why folks are not taking 18-1 for their money? Poker is about value betting, not waiting for the nuts, and 18-1 is a massive value bet (I am talking STT's here - cash games are completely different) Damo Not a chance. I'm either raising (quite a bit if I've got a hand) or more likely folding. You're getting great odds but there's a reason for that?:ok I'm not interested in how likely you are to win the hand - but how likely are you to hit something that you think will be ahead?:unsure

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB I know, was being a bit frisky with you;) and gaining chips is very important, which is why I would limp with value from the SB at Level One with any 2 if the odds are decent (say 5 limpers before me), hoping to hit a monster Damo

I put it is "" cos I don't think I can explain it very well:lol. I guess I'm just trying to say that in a tournament stages of survival or gaining chips are more important than pot/implied odds:unsure

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

confusing me here - you wont call because the pot odds are so great and there must be a reason? thats the time you WANT to call, when it is cheap - you don't want to be calling when you are getting an even money bet and your hand is a 2:1 dog

With loads of people in the pot it's far far more difficult to know if you're ahead or behind. You may be getting odds to win the hand if you were just going to turn over 5 cards and see who had the best hand, but you need to make a play on the flop.

isn't your second point the same, you hit your hand and are ahead, which means you are probably (barring being outdrawn) going to win the hand? (or am I completely missing the point?)

Yep, same thing. You might win the hand with pair. But would you bet out and think you're ahead with bottom or second pair? You could be ahead, but with (say) 8 people in the pot you have much less idea. Unless you hit a monster the vast majority of flops will look scary, and do you want to make a semi-bluff in level 1? Remember lots of people in the pot you'll have to bet quite a bit to make them all go away.

[Valiant23]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB Definitely for me primarily. When I starting throwing chips in posts (even limps), I will be pissed when I look at my AA and my stack is only 1200 instead of 1470. Plus 'donations' can be habit forming, and I'm not sure I still have the discipline to get out of hands (the one below I could...).

s that 'rock' style for your benefit or others? I ask because I wonder how many other players are actually paying attention? I am not saying splurge chips with q 10 when the flop is A K 10 and its sodding obvious that muppet UTG+1 has limp called with his A2o and bets 120 and muppet on the button has K8 and calls for 120...... :eyes I am trying to figure out why folks don't limp call for a single blind, or if they would, how much of a pot they would limp call in the SB with (i.e. what the minimum pot odds required are to play) Ta Damo Quote: Originally Posted by Valiant23 Funnily enough I limp less in the early stages than I should being truthful. Its difficult assimilating a rock style thats needed (imo) for the early part of a 10-seater, with spunking chips with say Q 10os...

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

I know, was being a bit frisky with you;) and gaining chips is very important, which is why I would limp with value from the SB at Level One with any 2 if the odds are decent (say 5 limpers before me), hoping to hit a monster Damo

That's exactly what I'm talking about. 5 limpers, on the SB, likely to have 7 in the pot. You may well have 14% chance of winning and getting 20/1 or even 30/1 to make up but how likely are you to hit the monster you want to play with? ;)

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB I understand that and agree - I am asking if it is value to call hoping to hit a monster (trips/str/FH/quads etc)? I am not advocating betting bottom pair with 2 5 on a A Q 5 rainbow flop semi-bluffing is bonkers, but checking and calling to a min bet is not a bad idea its the process of calling for value I am interested in, not the post flop play hope that clarifies my question Damo

With loads of people in the pot it's far far more difficult to know if you're ahead or behind. You may be getting odds to win the hand if you were just going to turn over 5 cards and see who had the best hand, but you need to make a play on the flop. Yep, same thing. You might win the hand with pair. But would you bet out and think you're ahead with bottom or second pair? You could be ahead, but with (say) 8 people in the pot you have much less idea. Unless you hit a monster the vast majority of flops will look scary, and do you want to make a semi-bluff in level 1? Remember lots of people in the pot you'll have to bet quite a bit to make them all go away.

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB about 1 time in 7 or so and you are getting 10-1 plus to make that call hence why I think its a value bet like this for instance - most limped, so I did to ;) Damo

That's exactly what I'm talking about. 5 limpers, on the SB, likely to have 7 in the pot. You may well have 14% chance of winning and getting 20/1 or even 30/1 to make up but how likely are you to hit the monster you want to play with? ;)

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

I understand that and agree - I am asking if it is value to call hoping to hit a monster (trips/str/FH/quads etc)? I am not advocating betting bottom pair with 2 5 on a A Q 5 rainbow flop semi-bluffing is bonkers, but checking and calling to a min bet is not a bad idea its the process of calling for value I am interested in, not the post flop play hope that clarifies my question Damo

OK then (I think that's a pretty similar question:lol). I would never call from the SB with that many limpers. Because...

• If I've got crap I wouldn't want to play it first up on the flop unless I hit say trips or better - and I don't think I'm generally going to be getting value to hit that on the flop.
• If I've got something I want to be involved in I'd raise to try to create some value and trim the field. But still I wouldn't want to do this with much, things like suited connectors I wouldn't bother with (probably just TJs or better) as a 'good' flop would probably be a draw and I'd be out of position.

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB thanks mate - I understand your point now Its nothing to do with what others may think of you, but just for you and your strategy Ta Damo

Definitely for me primarily. When I starting throwing chips in posts (even limps), I will be pissed when I look at my AA and my stack is only 1200 instead of 1470. Plus 'donations' can be habit forming, and I'm not sure I still have the discipline to get out of hands (the one below I could...).

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB For me the probelm with limping in the SB with trash because of pot odds is that your never going to win a big pot if you make something big, and you open yourself up to a busting when two freak hands collide. sa you limp with 5-2o and the flop comes 7-2-2. Your only going to get serious action if the guy had 77, another 2, or an over pair. If you bet here and your opponent comes over the top are you going to be supprised when he shows you A2, K2 or 77? You either win a very small pot that you may have taken just as easily with a pre flop raise, or you bust out :)

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB I also dont advocate raising from the SB on a steal either. In the button you can raises 3xbb to win 1.5xbb and be in position if your called. In the SB you have to raise 2.5x the bb to win 1xbb and be out of position and completely in the dark if your called. Ive lost count of the times ive got myself in disasterous situations trying to steal from the SB, or indeed trying to defend poxy level 3 BB's

[Masterplan]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB always call the small blind ...

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB you only see action with those cards? nah people will call with any 2 over cards on that flop, and any Ace, and any freaky flush/str draw where they need to hit 2 cards to have a chance and I wouldn't lead out against 5 opponents, let somone else take the lead in betting and see what happens, remember that people love to bluff, so let someone hang themselves with their 66 shove. If its checked round, then bet on the turn after another card to improve people, and again don't be worried about it if they shove - its an easy call you cannot be worried that the oppo turns over 77 A2 or K2 etc when that flop hits - if you are worried, then i suggest you give up playing LOL, the chance of them having those cards are miniscule, and they too are bonkers for limping from earlier positions with trash Damo

For me the probelm with limping in the SB with trash because of pot odds is that your never going to win a big pot if you make something big, and you open yourself up to a busting when two freak hands collide. sa you limp with 5-2o and the flop comes 7-2-2. Your only going to get serious action if the guy had 77, another 2, or an over pair. If you bet here and your opponent comes over the top are you going to be supprised when he shows you A2, K2 or 77? You either win a very small pot that you may have taken just as easily with a pre flop raise, or you bust out :)

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB I agree - too many people raise too often in the blinds and/or protect their BB to a raise why? if the blinds are low compared to your stack, let them go, you only want to be doing this when the blinds are large compared to stack size Phil Gordon summed it up for me - the blinds are a tax you have to pay to play (or something similar) Damo

I also dont advocate raising from the SB on a steal either. In the button you can raises 3xbb to win 1.5xbb and be in position if your called. In the SB you have to raise 2.5x the bb to win 1xbb and be out of position and completely in the dark if your called. Ive lost count of the times ive got myself in disasterous situations trying to steal from the SB, or indeed trying to defend poxy level 3 BB's

[Valiant23]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

I agree - too many people raise too often in the blinds and/or protect their BB to a raise why? if the blinds are low compared to your stack, let them go, you only want to be doing this when the blinds are large compared to stack size Phil Gordon summed it up for me - the blinds are a tax you have to pay to play (or something similar) Damo

Hi Folks I got a bit of a roasting here:sad http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31625 for limping 35 off against only the BB for 25 chips:ok So just wondering what people would limp with at early levels if you have a decent stack? Damo :cheers

So why pay more 'tax' voluntarily?:tongue2 Incidentally, although the 'rock' image is what I like at the start, it doesn't mean I'll play if I can get away with it, or the hands come along to help me build my stack. I busted out of an STT in the first level today for the first time in ages when my KK met JJ with a J on the flop... I thought I was against AA, QQ or AJ... :eyes

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB I think its something to do with pot odds...... ;) Damo ps was that against me? I have busted loads of folks today with the worst hand - 2 in one go in one game - am gonna post it :) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So why pay more 'tax' voluntarily?:tongue2 Incidentally, although the 'rock' image is what I like at the start, it doesn't mean I'll play if I can get away with it, or the hands come along to help me build my stack. I busted out of an STT in the first level today for the first time in ages when my KK met JJ with a J on the flop... I thought I was against AA, QQ or AJ... :eyes

[Valiant23]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB No mate, not against you at all, nor slamming you or flaming you. I do take the mickey though, as you know....:tongue2 ;) Its just that I accept blinds are the poker tax, and in fact it is that acceptance which makes me call with marginal hands as I'm half way in already. What my point of view is that just cos I have 2 cards in front doesn't mean there is a reason to play just because I'm on the small blind. I know situations change completely from pre to post flop hand strength, which is why I play more loose and more aggressive HU, but the original hand (35os or similar) is cack, so why spend more to get even deeper in the cack?

[slapdash]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB

I also dont advocate raising from the SB on a steal either. In the button you can raises 3xbb to win 1.5xbb and be in position if your called. In the SB you have to raise 2.5x the bb to win 1xbb and be out of position and completely in the dark if your called.

The point about being out of position is a very good one. But if you do try to steal from the SB, you're not doing it to win 1xbb, you're still doing it to win 1.5xbb. True, you put 0.5xbb of it in the pot yourself, but that doesn't make any difference. If you steal successfully, you're 1.5xbb better off than if you folded, just as you are if you steal from the button.

[robilaruk]

Re: Limping for a minor amount on the SB because 25 chips were 1/120th of my 4K stack its a miniscule amount to hit a hand Damo ps I know u take the mickey ;)

No mate, not against you at all, nor slamming you or flaming you. I do take the mickey though, as you know....:tongue2 ;) Its just that I accept blinds are the poker tax, and in fact it is that acceptance which makes me call with marginal hands as I'm half way in already. What my point of view is that just cos I have 2 cards in front doesn't mean there is a reason to play just because I'm on the small blind. I know situations change completely from pre to post flop hand strength, which is why I play more loose and more aggressive HU, but the original hand (35os or similar) is cack, so why spend more to get even deeper in the cack?