The Muppet Hands - Part II

[robilaruk]

My thoughts on Jadedj Play from here http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25142 If I had been awebberfan on the button I would have raised, so i think he lost an opportunity first of all - one limper and with KQs worth a raise as he has position for the rest of the hand even if called - and he wants the BB to call with the short stack, he wants to isolate and pick up 1200 chips. interesting raise from the SB given the two limpers and the BB shortie however, sometimes we need to make those plays - not sure I would have done it with K9 but each to their own - I would be looking for KQ AK AQ or a mid/high PP at least to make that move, also you are only raising 500 more so its not too difficult a call for either of the limpers and you will be out of position all the way thru the game - better to make it a 5 or 6X BB raise if you are going to raise at all - you really want to finish this hand straight away. And again I don't understan AWF calling, if you have been playing loose and he has been paying attention now is the time for him to reraise and have your chips, he must be thinking that if you are raiing fairly often you can't be getting good hands ALL the time, this would be a perfect situation for a reraise. Flop - nice flop for you, you hit your K and bet it - and a nice pot size bet defines your position, and it is not looking to healthy now as you get a caller - would you call with a flush draw (say A9d for 20% of your stack) , or a low pp (55 ETC?) so assuming he isn't chasing a flush draw what could he have? AK, Kx, a set? there are no str draws out there, so he must fancy his hand here. Again I think this is poor play by AWF - he should have raised you, he has top pair with (probably) top kicker (AK does him and would your raise with K8 or K2 from the SB?, probably not, 88 is a possibility but you want action with that and your pot bet discourages that), so if he does put you on a K he is (probably) way ahead he doesn't want you drawing to a flush, or hitting your miracle card to hit a set (maybe he has you on 10 10 etc) - I can't see the reason to slow play here - so bad play by him again IMHO. Turn - well no scary flush card so if he is chasing then you might as well shove as there is 5200 in the pot right now, and you can't imagine the 2 has helped him significantly (A2s maybe?) - and I can't blame him for calling either - maybe HIS intention in calling the flop was to shove the turn if no flush card hit - so not bad play either way - except we still don't know what he has! if we assume he wasn't calling for a flush and did have a K you are WAY behind to AK KQ KJ and K10 - so by betting like you did you have created your own monster :). could you bet a different amount rather than a shove, say half your stack? well half ur stack is another 1800, so I don't think you can, i think your shove if you are going to bet is correct and you can't let him have a free card if he is flushing. So you turn your cards over and you are gutted and he is pleased, as you have only 11 outs (4XA 2XK and 2X2 for a split, or 3X9 to win) and a lovely 9 hits:ok - you are now pleased and he is gutted! Interesting I think, and just the sort of hand that makes or breaks your tounry - I think AWF played his hand worse than you PF (no raise or reraise) and flop, (no reraise) - and just a bit loose (for me) to raise OOP for only 21/2 BB to a couple of limpers with K9s. Just my thoughts - would be interested in hearing others Damo :cheers

** Game ID 698633597 starting - 2006-02-24 22:16:18 ** Poker Night Live:Table 25 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (200.00|400.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money - tigrou59 sitting in seat 1 with $8450.00 - Awebberfan sitting in seat 2 with $9075.00 [Dealer] - JadedJ sitting in seat 3 with $6245.00 [sitting out] - xxxStevexxx sitting in seat 4 with $900.00 - Balroguk sitting in seat 5 with $3830.00 - spiersey1 sitting in seat 6 with $2250.00 - Skipper-dawn sitting in seat 7 with $1795.00 - Ricky40 sitting in seat 8 with $5580.00 JadedJ posted the small blind - $100.00 xxxStevexxx posted the big blind - $200.00 ** Dealing card to JadedJ: King of Clubs, 9 of Clubs Balroguk folded spiersey1 folded Skipper-dawn folded Ricky40 folded tigrou59 called - $200.00 Awebberfan called - $200.00 JadedJ raised - $700.00 xxxStevexxx folded tigrou59 folded Awebberfan called - $700.00 ** Dealing the flop: King of Diamonds, 2 of Diamonds, 8 of Clubs JadedJ bet - $1800.00 Awebberfan called - $1800.00 ** Dealing the turn: 2 of Spades JadedJ went all-in - $3845.00 Awebberfan called - $3845.00 Awebberfan shows: Queen of Spades, King of Spades ** Dealing the river: 9 of Spades JadedJ wins $13090.00 from the main pot End of game 698633597

[GaF]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Nice post Damo :ok I think Awebberfan played this extremely badly ....... "fold equity" is huge, which is why aggression pays dividends so often in poker ..... Awf has just flat called throughout ........... Personally I would probably have folded the KQ pre flop given the 3.5x BB raise before me (depending on my opinion of Jaded) - the only other play I would have considered would have been a significant raise (to 2100). But for me, should have been a fold with KQs. :ok

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I agree extremely bad play by AWF - but it would have been even worse to fold PF - there is 1200 in the pot and he has to pay only 500 more from a stack of 9K or so (he already called for 200) - thats 2.2 to 1, thats GREAT pot odds with KQs as he has position all the way through the hand, and to win the tourny people will have to play these kind of hands at some point. That is the only thought I have for why he played it so passively, maybe he though JJ had AK perhaps? But then, why call the shove on the turn if you think that? I think this is a great post as it has so many errors in it that people can discuss and try to puzzle out :) Cheers Damo :cheers

Nice post Damo :ok I think Awebberfan played this extremely badly ....... "fold equity" is huge, which is why aggression pays dividends so often in poker ..... Awf has just flat called throughout ........... Personally I would probably have folded the KQ pre flop given the 3.5x BB raise before me (depending on my opinion of Jaded) - the only other play I would have considered would have been a significant raise (to 2100). But for me, should have been a fold with KQs. :ok

[GaF]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

but it would have been even worse to fold PF - there is 1200 in the pot and he has to pay only 500 more from a stack of 9K or so (he already called for 200) - thats 2.2 to 1' date=' thats GREAT pot odds with KQs as he has position all the way through the hand, and to win the tourny people [u']will have to play these kind of hands at some point.

Agreed - in tournaments though, you can't always afford to play the odds, but in this case, he had a big stack and could........with a better and raiser before him though, he would have to expect he was behind..... I hate a flat call in this situation, but I don't think he can expect to be ahead (though we know he is) and putting a raise in is difficult ..... so in summary, I don't like the flat call, a raise is difficult as we think he is behind, and a fold is losing the odds he has been offered ...... I don't know what I think anymore ..... will have another (clearer) look at this when fresher!!!

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I know you are both more aggressive than me, so I'll disagree with you both.;)

I agree extremely bad play by AWF - but it would have been even worse to fold PF - there is 1200 in the pot and he has to pay only 500 more from a stack of 9K or so (he already called for 200) - thats 2.2 to 1, thats GREAT pot odds with KQs as he has position all the way through the hand, and to win the tourny people will have to play these kind of hands at some point.

I think Damo is right about the call of the raise. KQsuited is a great drawing hand, so pot odds surely dictate he must call.

Again I think this is poor play by AWF - he should have raised you, he has top pair with (probably) top kicker (AK does him and would your raise with K8 or K2 from the SB?, probably not, 88 is a possibility but you want action with that and your pot bet discourages that), so if he does put you on a K he is (probably) way ahead he doesn't want you drawing to a flush, or hitting your miracle card to hit a set (maybe he has you on 10 10 etc) - I can't see the reason to slow play here - so bad play by him again IMHO.

But this is where I disagree. The pre flop raise by Jaded would have me concerned about a mid-sized pocket pair or AK. The flopped K would have me hopeful, but I'd be concerned that I'm behind in the hand, and that JJ's betting would have me worried that I'm up against AA. I would be hopeful of catching a Q to put me ahead (before the 2nd 2). Jaded surely must have realised after the turn that HE was behind, but I think that the aggression up to the river would allow him to play it as he pleased. IF JJ had've checked the river I'm sure Aber would have just been happy to see the hand out. Saying that Aber may have finally decided he was ahead at the river in that he was up against another K. The fact that Jaded caught his 2pr on the river was bad luck on Aber's part. I have to say that were I Aber, that I would have viewed the chips as lost but information gained, and I have sometimes been happy to lose a hand like this for the information I have on a particularly puzzling player.

[rednutt]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I think this is a great thread and i feel i could learn loads from it to improve my game.:clap :ok Keep the HH coming and the much needed advice

[The Quiet Man]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I'd have folded after the raise by Jaded! :dude It's an interesting thread though and an extremely well written breakdown of the betting by Damo - this can certainly be benificial to those that want to learn and improve their game. :ok I'm wondering if that was me on the same table under the alias of spiersey1 - as per usual I've had a hard weekend and can't remember where I've been playing! :lol

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Answers to 2 posts in one here :) ******************* GaF said: Agreed - in tournaments though, you can't always afford to play the odds, but in this case, he had a big stack and could........with a better and raiser before him though, he would have to expect he was behind..... ********************** Pot Odds - just to clarify, AWF limped from the button to an EP limper, JJ raised from the SB and the original limper folds, so AWF closes the action on the button, the original limper is inconsequential now. He must call here IMHO, there is 1200 in the pot and he is getting 2:2 to 1 for his money, the only hands he fears at this point is AA or KK, for every other hand that JJ might have he is at least getting the correct pot odds to play (see below). Folks can't be concerned that the villlian always has AA/KK etc, and you must play pot odds when they are favourable, (as GaF said), in this case it is for 3 reasons:

1. AWF ends the action so he knows how much it costs
2. He always has position throughout the hand
3. He has a healthy stack and is up against a shorter stack - AWF can knock JJ out of the tourny, JJ can't do the same (tho JJ can cripple him)

If you fear villian always has you beat then fold every hand and only play AA, because that is the only hand that is ahead PF :tongue2 :eek :tongue2 *********************************** Mr V wrote: But this is where I disagree. The pre flop raise by Jaded would have me concerned about a mid-sized pocket pair or AK. ********************************************** briefly discussed this, but to clarify

1. against a pocket pair he is just short of even money (on average depending how high the PP is) so 2:2 to 1 is GREAT odds
2. He is a 2:1 dog versus AK or AQ or QQ so again he is getting the correct odds to play
3. AA/KK he is struggling against, but you can't be concerned about this too much as it is 110:1 that your opponent holds KK or better. You will crack a better hand at some point to win the tourny (or place 2nd as JJ did ;))
4. against any other Ax hand he is a 55/45 dog or so, so again correct odds to play
5. against any other hand he is at least a 2:1 fav - no brainer!:dude

There are plenty of sites that have hole card and flop calculators, for folks who don't know how to calculate them try here for a starter http://www.thehendonmob.com/pokercalc/index.html play around with a few options and you will be surprised how close things are :) Folks must always consider pot odds, even if you have 72o, if other things are favourable then 72o is a monster! You must take into account what JJ said initially, he had been raising fairly regularly for 3 blinds or so, so this is a negative for him as someone will look him up - plus KQs is a great hand at this part of the tounry, the blinds are eating into your stack and you need to be winning to stay ahead. You cannot wait for AA/KK to appear, you will and must play lesser hands if you want to stay ahead of the blinds and have a chance at winning, so please don't fold KQs in this position:hope Hope this helps folks understand my thoughts on why you don't fold KQs in this example, and what you need to think about at a poker table when you are faced with this decision - remember you do have 15 secs which is a long time, so don't rush and fold your cards after 2 secs because you assume the villian has AK and has you beat:ok Damo :cheers

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I think what I meant Damo is that in some hands you have an instigator or aggressor (in this case Jaded). I personally will defer betting to a more aggressive player like Jaded and try and decide where I stand depending on the flop and how my aggressor reacts to it. As I said there was enough to keep him interested and calling Jaded, but too many pitfalls for him to become the dominant player.

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Indeed - having re-thought about it it is posssible that after the flop AWF decided to let JJ spew all his chips to him and was slow playing his TPGK - As harrington says - rope-a-dope :ok I still think that his (AWF) PF play was poor, and I would still have preferred to see a raise on the flop to chase out JJ's "Ax raise" etc or whatever else he thought he had Damo :cheers

I personally will defer betting to a more aggressive player like Jaded and try and decide where I stand depending on the flop and how my aggressor reacts to it. As I said there was enough to keep him interested and calling Jaded, but too many pitfalls for him to become the dominant player.

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Need help please - $10 short table, have raised got called and flush flop hits - thoughts? X Squared is at seat 1 with 1425.00 T&S&L is at seat 2 with 480.00 hanne84 is at seat 3 with 1115.00 robilaruk is at seat 4 with 2325.00 kaylee42 is at seat 5 with 2080.00 kaylee42 posts the large blind 50.00 robilaruk posts the small blind 25.00 robilaruk: 10d, 10h kaylee42: --, -- X Squared: --, -- T&S&L: --, -- hanne84: --, -- Pre-flop: X Squared: Fold T&S&L: Call 50.00 hanne84: Fold robilaruk: Raise 350.00 kaylee42: Call 350.00 T&S&L: Fold Flop (Board: 3s, 7s, 8s): My Move?? Damo :cheers

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Firstly, I should say that a couple of days ago (Friday actually), found I had £1.18 in my Playgate Poker account... :nana , so I've been playing a few $1 6 player turbos. Managed to get the account balance up to nearly £8 with 7 money finishes out of 9 (top 2 pay). Anyway, wanted to know how you would have played a couple of hands. Sorry, don't have hand histories, but I'll give you as much detail as I remember. 1st hand: On SB with just under 1000 chips. Blinds are 10/20. Holding A2o. I call, BB (who has over 2k in chips) rasies up to 80. First question, should I call? Anyway, I called. Flop came 357, all different suits. I check, BB bets 250. What should I do? I do have a straight draw. 2nd hand. On BB holding 99. Blinds are 5/10 (3rd hand I think, so everyone roughly even in chips). Button raises to 200, what should I do? I'll tell you what I did later, but first I would like your views on how you would have played these hands.

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

Need help please - $10 short table, have raised got called and flush flop hits - thoughts? X Squared is at seat 1 with 1425.00 T&S&L is at seat 2 with 480.00 hanne84 is at seat 3 with 1115.00 robilaruk is at seat 4 with 2325.00 kaylee42 is at seat 5 with 2080.00 kaylee42 posts the large blind 50.00 robilaruk posts the small blind 25.00 robilaruk: 10d, 10h kaylee42: --, -- X Squared: --, -- T&S&L: --, -- hanne84: --, -- Pre-flop: X Squared: Fold T&S&L: Call 50.00 hanne84: Fold robilaruk: Raise 350.00 kaylee42: Call 350.00 T&S&L: Fold Flop (Board: 3s, 7s, 8s): My Move?? Damo :cheers

My view is that you have to bet something to see where you stand, say 300. If kaylee was only calling with A high or a pic, you'd hope he/she would fold. If called, you've got to assume a pocket pair (not necessarily higher than yours), hit a community card, hit the flush or got a straight or flush draw. If called, then I'd say you've got to check on the turn unless it improves your hand (i.e. another 10), but still be wary of the straight or flush. If your bet is re-raised, then you must seriously think about folding. All that said, it may be a muppet who has nothing. :) So, what did you do?

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

My view is that you have to bet something to see where you stand' date=' say 300. If kaylee was only calling with A high or a pic, you'd hope he/she would fold. If called, you've got to assume a pocket pair (not necessarily higher than yours), hit a community card, hit the flush or got a straight or flush draw. [b']If called, then I'd say you've got to check on the turn unless it improves your hand (i.e. another 10), but still be wary of the straight or flush. If your bet is re-raised, then you must seriously think about folding. All that said, it may be a muppet who has nothing. :) So, what did you do?

Damn Pro! I SO nearly ageed with you!:lol The bit in bold is where I disagree. I know poor players LOVE suited hole cards, but you have to respect their cards if not them. So assuming the turn didn't fill the straight (or draw) or give a 1spade hole card the flush, OR no A then I'd still have to bet quite strongly. I do agree with the rest though mate.:D EDIT: The reason I disagree is that were I playing Damo I would view a check on the turn as an opportunity to represent the flush, and I'd consider making a large bet for Damo to decide whether he fancied his chances. If Damo bets 1st, he maintains some initiative.

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

Firstly, I should say that a couple of days ago (Friday actually), found I had £1.18 in my Playgate Poker account... :nana , so I've been playing a few $1 6 player turbos. Managed to get the account balance up to nearly £8 with 7 money finishes out of 9 (top 2 pay). Anyway, wanted to know how you would have played a couple of hands. Sorry, don't have hand histories, but I'll give you as much detail as I remember. 1st hand: On SB with just under 1000 chips. Blinds are 10/20. Holding A2o. I call, BB (who has over 2k in chips) rasies up to 80. First question, should I call? Anyway, I called. Flop came 357, all different suits. I check, BB bets 250. What should I do? I do have a straight draw. 2nd hand. On BB holding 99. Blinds are 5/10 (3rd hand I think, so everyone roughly even in chips). Button raises to 200, what should I do? I'll tell you what I did later, but first I would like your views on how you would have played these hands.

Pro, fold and fold(eventually). 1st hand you have no kicker, but an A. Even with a flopped A you are still behind, unless you get 2 2's to go with it. It is way to early (my choice ;)) to chance your STT, even if you would have won. 2nd hand - just because it was a positional raise doesn;t mean he had rags, so you have to respect the raise. Even IF I called the 200, if my hand wasn't improved post flop I'd consider dropping.

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II first hand - fine play to call PF, though I would'nt chase my gutshot - so fold 2nd hand - dunno, how many chips do you start with? how quick the blind structure? is this a 5 table game? I would prolly call abd hope for a no A/no broadway flop and make a half pot bet to see what he does ta Damo

1st hand: On SB with just under 1000 chips. Blinds are 10/20. Holding A2o. I call, BB (who has over 2k in chips) rasies up to 80. First question, should I call? Anyway, I called. Flop came 357, all different suits. I check, BB bets 250. What should I do? I do have a straight draw. 2nd hand. On BB holding 99. Blinds are 5/10 (3rd hand I think, so everyone roughly even in chips). Button raises to 200, what should I do? I'll tell you what I did later, but first I would like your views on how you would have played these hands.

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

Damn Pro! I SO nearly ageed with you!:lol The bit in bold is where I disagree. I know poor players LOVE suited hole cards, but you have to respect their cards if not them. So assuming the turn didn't fill the straight (or draw) or give a 1spade hole card the flush, OR no A then I'd still have to bet quite strongly. I do agree with the rest though mate.:D EDIT: The reason I disagree is that were I playing Damo I would view a check on the turn as an opportunity to represent the flush, and I'd consider making a large bet for Damo to decide whether he fancied his chances. If Damo bets 1st, he maintains some initiative.

Mr V - I see your point and wouldn't disagree with it... but I don't think either is wrong or necessarily better than the other. Let me give you an example of what happened to me last night on a 5-player TV table on SO (after I'd 'retired' from the DU). It's heads up, I have a slight chip advantage, although not by much. I get dealt Kc Ks. Blinds are 200/400, I am on SB. I raise to 1500, other player calls. Flop comes A??, all clubs. I go all-in (hoping he doesn't have an A) and he calls. He is holding Qc 3c. Fortunately for me another club comes on the river to help me out and win the game. But, my point is, you have to repect the player's crap play. No decent player in their right mind would call a 1100 raise pre-flop with Q3, suited or not. But we aren't talking about decent players here, merely chancers who are happy to rely 100% on luck. I was lucky this time, but that's one in a million. I did have KK, I may not have been so brave after the flop with 10 10. PS Great minds think alike. (And don't anyone say fools seldom differ... Mr V doesn't like being called a fool :ok ).

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Guys - thanks for the replies, and I agree with you 100%. Both games were 6 player tables on Playgate (iPoker network, same tables as Betfred). Now, got to be honest here and say that the hands were actually the other way around. In the first hand I was actually holding KK and the MUPPET was holding A2. The twat went all-in after my 200 raise with only a gutshot straight draw.. I had to call with effectively nothing on the board. He hit a 4 on the river for his straight. The 2nd hand I was holding AA. After the flop I went all-in. He called and hit another 9. This one wasn't so bad, but from what I have read before, most of you would have folded 99 after a 20xBB raise. The point I am trying to make (and have been trying to get this across for some time, but rather unsuccessfully) is that in online poker games it is very, very, very (did I say very?) seldom that you can do things 'by the book' because there will always be MUPPETS (as you call them... I prefer to call them much worse things) who will call with anything and nothing. I've lost count how many times I've been called by someone who has hit bottom pair and no kicker good enough to mention, but will then hit trips or 2 pair. And how many times have they stayed in the hand simply because their 2 cards are suited. Even in latter stages of a game (except, I must admit, where PL'ers are involved) you will still get the same MUPPETS who are happy to chance their arm. And this is the exact reason I started the thread a couple of weeks ago asking whether we should be changing our style of play for online games. The 'by the book' game (if you will) is more for the live players I think, and in my opinion most PL'ers would do very well at them. Would be nice if we could get a number of PL'ers to a live game one night just like in the DU, and see how many we could get to the final table. Danno375 - from what I have read, I believe you play a similar game to me and it would be much better suited to the live arena. My recommendation is that you lower your stakes in online games to no more than £10 buy-in (play for fun only) and go enjoy yourself in a live game. I am pretty certain you will get to the final table many times... and the rewards for winning are much greater. I'll leave you with this thought... My last live win was £1060. I left the £60 for the waitresses (no comments please!) and got the other £1000 in 20 £50 notes. What a sight! Before that I had only ever seen 1 £50 note. :cheers

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Excellent points and post Pro.:ok I think that when I come into contact with muppets in the latter stages of a tourney, at first I am shocked, and disappointed that no one has put them out before, but try and see it as a challenge to dump them out on their ass. Sometimes I succeed, in which case I am in a very strong chip position, and sometimes either I get knocked out by them, or some one else takes them out. :D

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

Excellent points and post Pro.:ok I think that when I come into contact with muppets in the latter stages of a tourney, at first I am shocked, and disappointed that no one has put them out before, but try and see it as a challenge to dump them out on their ass. Sometimes I succeed, in which case I am in a very strong chip position, and sometimes either I get knocked out by them, or some one else takes them out. :D

Apart from the DU a few weeks ago, it has been a loooooooong time since I got to the latter stages of a MTT (by latter stages I mean top 20 at worst), and so I don't know whether the muppets get there or not. Sorry about the deception, but I did it to prove a point. And I kept a poker face the whole time whilst writing it. :lol

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I bet and he called - the turn is the Q clubs - so now whats my play? Damo robilaruk: 10d, 10h kaylee42: --, -- X Squared: --, -- T&S&L: --, -- hanne84: --, -- Pre-flop: X Squared: Fold T&S&L: Call 50.00 hanne84: Fold robilaruk: Raise 350.00 kaylee42: Call 350.00 T&S&L: Fold Flop (Board: 3s, 7s, 8s): robilaruk: Bet 950.00 kaylee42: Call 950.00

My view is that you have to bet something to see where you stand, say 300. So, what did you do?

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

I know poor players LOVE suited hole cards' date=' but you have to respect their cards if not them. So assuming the turn didn't fill the straight (or draw) or give a 1spade hole card the flush, OR no A then [b']I'd still have to bet quite strongly.

You bet stronger on the turn and he stayed with you. I would be on my way to giving up on the hand, but not quite. I would suggest a 30% stack bet on the turn, and start to hope for no spades AND no more overcards. You made (imo) too big a bet of 950 chips. This increase means you are painting yourself iinto a tight spot. I would have made another same sized bet, post flop and maybe post turn.

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Well, if we are playing 'by the book' (which is highly unlikely), then I don't believe the Q has helped kaylee. The fact that he/she called your bet means he/she has something already. Hmmmmm, tough one. As I suggested earlier, I think I would check. Yes, I know it shows sign of weakness, but I reckon I would be behind. Mr V on the other hand says he would continue the betting. So, how did it finish?

[Valiant23]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Mainly because you are making a semi bluff Pro. By pretending the Q didn't improve your hand (as you are bluffing the nuts), this can put a seed of doubt in kaylee's mind. Keeping the bet the same size also helps give nothing away. As long as you can see the river you have one final get out of jail card, I suppose.

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II What do you reckon kaylee had Mr V? Something tells me he/she had 10 10 as well. Go on Damo, put us out of our misery. By the way, I do agree that 950 was too big a bet with so much trouble on baord.

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II alright then I put villian on a flush draw, so I shoved the turn and this is what happened :eyes robilaruk: All in kaylee42: All in Showdown: robilaruk shows: 10d, 10h (a pair of Tens) kaylee42 shows: 9c, 9s (a pair of Nines) River (Board: 3s, 7s, 8s, Qc, 4s): kaylee42 shows: 9c, 9s (flush to the Nine) Mainpot: kaylee42 wins the pot of 4310 with flush to the Nine

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II Very unlucky. Typical internet poker...oops, not allowed to say that :$ . I was close when I said he/she had 10 10.. they would have both been black too. I don't reckon any type of bet at any time would have taken them off the hand.

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II I think it is the lack of thought from the villian that got me I deliberately made a massive overbet on the flop (i.e. I REALLY do have a hand) and then a shove on the turn and he is prepared to call assuming his pair is still good?, or that a spade might win it for him? (for most of his stack??) instant call both times, no thought, no deliberation, just playing his cards rather than mine - oh well, one to note for the future :) Damo :cheers

[ThePro19]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II

oh well, one to note for the future :) Damo :cheers

Not quite sure what you mean by this. This to me implies that if you get called by some moron who doesn't know how to play, then you have to fold your hand if they call your bet no matter what hand you have... including AA. That's not poker! Shame the dice game is called Craps, because this would be an ideal name for online poker :rollin

[robilaruk]

Re: The Muppet Hands - Part II what I mean is that there was no thought to what I was representing - he just insta-called both bets, I don't think he even thought about what I could possibly have and whether he was beat. Which is GREAT! coz i want to play against those muppets who call with a worse hand :) Hope that makes sense Damo :cheers

Not quite sure what you mean by this. This to me implies that if you get called by some moron who doesn't know how to play' date=' then you have to fold your hand if they call your bet no matter what hand you have... including AA. That's not poker! Shame the dice game is called Craps, because this would be an ideal name for online poker :rollin[/quote']