The Brigadier Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Having been making my own tissue prices for over 35 years for many of the leading bookmakers I thought I would share my strategy and thoughts. As to any serious punter the ability to be able to put your own opinions into odds form can be vital when attempting to get one over on the old enemy. There is a small amount of general arithmetic needed to relate a horses chance into a percentage figure. The first thing to understand is that every book is compiled to 100% with any thing over that the bookmakers profit margin (or over round). If you can back every runner in the race to under 100% (thus meaning with a staking plan you can’t lose, a perfect book) then this is called over broke. Every price has a percentage to match which can be worked out by dividing the price plus stake into 100. So for example 2/1 is 2/1 plus 1 = 3 divided into 100 which equates to 33% or 6/4 is 1.5 plus 1 = 2.5 divided into 100 which equates to 40%. The best way to learn these is to write them all out and like anything in time you’ll get to remember them. Below is a chart with the majority of odds and their percentages. So every price has a percentage which when added together with all the others in the race must add up to 100% plus any extra margin you like. I’ve always worked to the 2% a runner for the first ten runners then 1% any others. So a 12 runner race would be 122% (that’s 10 runners x 2% plus 2 runners x 1%). Obviously the better the race or meeting the less the margin over 100%. For example if that 12 runner race was at Royal Ascot you would more than likely be looking at 112%. If you are just pricing a race for your own good and not as a bookmaker looking to lay them then it is advisable to bet to the 100% mark. Now you know the basics we can start the fun of something we all like doing which is getting our heads stuck in the form book. Personally I work from the top of the race card and after form study put a price next to each horse, changing them as I work down the field as I begin to get a ‘feel’ for the race. I know of many odds compilers that like to have a brief look at the race and put them in some sort of order before pricing up. There’s no exact science as to where to start and finish and it really is a personnel preference. I don’t really need to elaborate as to how to read the form book as once again that really is something which everyone has their own ideas on but I would say that for me the most important factor is the ground followed by trip. Nowadays the punter has so many tools and help to hand that if you put in the hours you’ll certainly be able to put one over the bookmakers. Once you’ve compiled your list then compare it to the odds that the bookmakers produce and remember just because everyone is for example 10/1 a certain horse that you made only a 5/1 chance doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Far from it in fact. Nowadays William Hills normally will price up the majority of the handicaps at the 48 hour stage and others will follow suit at the overnight stage. Surprisingly a lot of the bigger companies are quite happy to just follow the firms that have already issued odds and it’s not un-common for a horse to be the same price right across the line of oddschecker (or any other price comparison site). Like anything in life the more experienced at pricing races you become the more confident you become. There’s no better feeling then pricing a race and having a strong opinion on one and seeing that it’s significantly bigger with the bookmakers. Then it’s time to test your judgement against theirs! I’ve tried to make this piece as user friendly as possible as if you can understand the percentages of each price and can bash them into a calculator then it really is that easy and fun. Please try it and I would love to know your successes (or failures, as they’ll be plenty of those along the way I assure you!). Finally Simon Rowlands, an esteemed and very well respected form analyst who works for Timeform produced an article regarding pricing a race back in 2015 if anyone wants further reading https://www.timeform.com/horse-racing/features/rowley/the-timeform-knowledge-pricing-up-a-race-15102015 BBBC, Wildgarden, MCLARKE and 5 others 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Wow .....I was just working on something similar ....I've nearly finished it .I'll post it up in a bit so we can discuss improvements etc Wildgarden, The Brigadier and Villa Chris 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) One of the questions I've seen most on forums is how do you determine value ????.....so let's try an value experiment and see how it goes .... First of all you need to decided what is important and assign a percentage of importance ( which can be changed ) ....but the total must come to 100% so for this example I've assigned .... Last time out form (40 % ) 1st or 2nd 10pts 3rd or 4th 8pts 5th or 6th 6pts 7th or 8th 4pts 9th or worse 2pts So that assigns recent form and what points the horse scores later we will come back to that Last win official rating +-lbs ( this is for hcaps for this example ) (15%) Off this hcap mark .... Won 10pts 1lb above last win 8pts 2 or 3 lbs above last win 6pts 4 or 5 pts above last win 4pts 6 plus lbs above last win 2pts So that assigns how well hccapped the horse is Form on ground ( 15% ) Won on ground 10pts Placed on ground 8pts Won on near to today's ground I.e good if today's gd/soft 6pts Placed on near today's ground 4pts Ground not close 2pts Distance form (20%) Won dist 10pts Placed dist 8pts Won within 2f 6pts Placed within 2f 4pts No form 3f+ 2pts Fitness ( 10% ) Last run 14 to 28 days 10pts Last run 8 to 13 days 8pts Last run 29 to 42 days 6pts Last run 1 to 7 days 4pts Last run 43days plus 2pts Right that's all values assigned ....the percentage in brackets is the importance I've assigned to each section ....this can be changed by yourself but must total 100% overall We now come to the formula that works out value Value = ( 40 * last time score ) + ( 15 * last win o.r score ) + (15 * ground section score ) + ( 20 * distance score ) + (10 * fitness score ) Looks complicated but the first number in each bracket is the percentage you assigned to each group at the top .....multiplyed by the score your horse achieved in each section ...... So in the last time out section at the top if your horse finished 2nd last time it would score 10pts so the first bracket of the value formula would be ( 40 * 10 ) ...you carry on for each section to complete the formula Let's do a working example as this will make it clearer My horse finished 2nd last time ......is 2lbs above last win ......has placed on ground ......won at distance ......last ran 42 days ago Scores for each section are Last time 10pts 2lb above win 6pts Placed on ground 8pts Won at distance 10pts Last ran 42 days 6pts Now you plug those numbers into the value formula Value = ( 40*10 )+( 15*6)+(15*8)+(20*10)+(10*6) Next stage is to convert the first number in each bracket ( the percentage )..to a decimal by dividing it by 100 Value =( .4*10)+ (.15*6)+(.15 *8)+(.20*10)+ (.1*6) Note the first number is a decimal .5 etc Now work out each bracket with your calculator and add up Value = (4)+(.90)+(1.2)+(2)+(.6) Totals for all brackets = 8.7 so this is the value score for horse 1 You now do the same for other horses ....of course this can be done on computer or spreadsheet for speed and you just plug the numbers in Just for this example let's pretend it's a 3 horse race so each horse rated as follows Horse 1 8.7 Horse 2 7.8 Horse 3 8.1 You now add up the scores for all horses.....in this case its ...24.6 We are now gonna create a price for each horse by taking the score for each horse and dividing it by the total score Horse 1 8.7 /24.6 =0.353 Horse 2 7.8/24.6 =0.317 Horse 3 8.1 /24.6 =0.329 Times each score by 100 to get your final percentage value figure Horse 1 35% Horse 2 31% Horse 3 32% You can now convert this percentage to a price using brigadier chart above and compare your value price with the actual price on offer .....if the odds on offer are far higher then your onto a winner long term ......and that's value in a nutshell ? If you cant find the exact percentage price just go as close as you can and round up preferably to be safe Edited January 10, 2021 by richard-westwood MCLARKE, Wildgarden, Point the way and 6 others 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa Chris Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) Some elements there of how I was rating my horses, and I managed to figure out how to price up a race, but the more accurate your ratings, the more accurate your odds. I’m a sucker for giving up too early when it comes to methods in horse racing, but I thinking most days of how to improve my way of finding winners. Edited January 10, 2021 by Villa Chris richard-westwood and The Brigadier 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgarden Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Last time out form - watch videos first incase there was an issue why it didn't win some unlucky circumstance which could add points on ... The Brigadier and richard-westwood 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCLARKE Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 With last time out form do you need to take account of the number of runners, for instance a horse that came 3rd in a field of 20 is better than a horse than finished 2nd in a field of 3. Also a horse that came 2nd in a class 1 race should get a higher rating than a horse that finished 2nd in a class 5 race. Wildgarden, gbettle and The Brigadier 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) Yes .....I did consider adding a class section but I didn't want to overload the criteria ....the more you add the harder it is to assign importance to each section .....but I think class probably should be added as many horses are only at home in certain classes of race Likewise ...jockey .....it does have a bearing sometimes its definitive in some races You could have 10 or 12 sections but how do you percentage that ??. The recent form thing is something I use .....that flat rule top 6 last time generally provides 80% of winners regardless so I just use it blindly .....I wouldn't just use this value on it's own though I'd couple it with my own ratings and that compensates for the difference ....so if a horse finished 6th in a lower race it might score a value rating of 7.5 .....but my rating might be 255 ......whereas a higher class horse might have a value rating of 7.5 but have a rating of 270 on my form because of his stronger form so I tend to pick it up that way but a class and or form rating would help do the same Edited January 10, 2021 by richard-westwood The Brigadier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCLARKE Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 I agree, deciding what is important and the degree of importance is the critical part of this process, I will have a play around with my data and see what I can come up with. The Brigadier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCLARKE Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 This is very much a work in progress for me but hopefully the approach I will use is logical. To start off with I am going to limit my analysis to handicap chases (excluding novices). Thanks to @richard-westwood as I am following his approach. Initially I will give each factor equal weight, I will experiment with these at a later stage. I will use strike rates to determine the points I give to each selection. I am going to start off with some basic factors that are available on a standard race-card. These are:- Weight, DSLR, Jockey Claim, Age, Couse Winner, Beaten Favourite, Sex and FPLR. I will split each factor in to a maximum of 5 categories in the same way as Richard has done, with each category comprising 20% of the base data. As an example for FPLR (last time out) the categories are :- 1st - 17 points 2nd - 3rd - 14 points 4th - 6th - 11 points > 6th - 9 points DNF - 10 points. I will look at applying this to some races over the next few days to see how accurate / useful it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, MCLARKE said: This is very much a work in progress for me but hopefully the approach I will use is logical. To start off with I am going to limit my analysis to handicap chases (excluding novices). Thanks to @richard-westwood as I am following his approach. Initially I will give each factor equal weight, I will experiment with these at a later stage. I will use strike rates to determine the points I give to each selection. I am going to start off with some basic factors that are available on a standard race-card. These are:- Weight, DSLR, Jockey Claim, Age, Couse Winner, Beaten Favourite, Sex and FPLR. I will split each factor in to a maximum of 5 categories in the same way as Richard has done, with each category comprising 20% of the base data. As an example for FPLR (last time out) the categories are :- 1st - 17 points 2nd - 3rd - 14 points 4th - 6th - 11 points > 6th - 9 points DNF - 10 points. I will look at applying this to some races over the next few days to see how accurate / useful it is. Yes that formula is just the "framework" that allows you to change it as you will ....as you said it's getting the choice and percentages right thats the key ......if you get that right though then it's literally a money machine ....I'm gonna have a good play with it myself over the next few days .....especially the percentages .......im personally toying with .......last time out finishing position ( reason being on I'd say 80% of my trends for big races that is a huge one ....around 80% finished top 6 last time regardless) but it makes sense if you think about it Then I think I'll use my form ratings as some sort of general form measure which you need and that includes class so that adds a bit extra Does the horse go on the ground ??...im thinking that's just 3 options ....yes .......has run close to today's ground .....or no so that could be 10 ...6..and 2 maybe Distance I think needs to be addressed......is that a straight forward yes or no ???.....and diff for jumps flat obviously .....2f diff on jumps is ok ....but 2f on flat is huge etc Finally I think how well hccapped the horse is a factor .....because although form rating partly addresses ....if all other factors are high but horse is 6lb above last win then that has a bearing on the value imo ...so needs to be included ......and I think that's enough So for me it would be Last time position (recent form) Form rating (includes class ) Ground (won) or placed Distance won or near Hcap mark So that's 5 .......I think the easier you make it .....the more likely you'll be able to get the percentages right later on ....work in progress .....but very interesting and something to keep me occupied in quiet times ? Edited January 12, 2021 by richard-westwood MCLARKE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I've had a crack at the 12.40 at Lingfield ....... ratings compiled based on points for recent form, C and D, Age & Going, then used the above to convert into odds Value selections (10 runners) - Bet365 Accomplice - my odds 9/2 (my Favourite), current odds 13/2 EW shot Rogue Tide - my odds 12/1, current odds 33/1 The main problem is that this has taken me nearly an hour ......... so it's not practical to look at many races. Therefore pre-starting race selection is a big component. I just chose the first handicap on the AW but some thought would have to go into this aspect to pick 2 or 3 races maximum MCLARKE, yossa6133, The Brigadier and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Trotter said: I've had a crack at the 12.40 at Lingfield ....... ratings compiled based on points for recent form, C and D, Age & Going, then used the above to convert into odds Value selections (10 runners) - Bet365 Accomplice - my odds 9/2 (my Favourite), current odds 13/2 EW shot Rogue Tide - my odds 12/1, current odds 33/1 Rough Tide ........ WON 40/1 think I'll retire now ....... ? vikki37, gbettle, BBBC and 6 others 6 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBBC Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 @Trotter great start. Had a look at Rogue tide last night and decided not to bother till I saw you write up and the price. Great start to the day. Cheers!! The Brigadier and Trotter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa Chris Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Great stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Trotter said: Rough Tide ........ WON 40/1 think I'll retire now ....... ? Omg that's fab ......well done.....yes your right it's long winded but if its gonna work then 1 or 2races is fine with me ? The Brigadier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Had a go at 415 kemp tomorrow ....used recent form ...form rating ....going ...dist ... Iesha should be 8/1 ....can get 16.0 betfair The good ting should be 6/1 ...can get 9.0 betfair I BBBC, vikki37, Wildgarden and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brigadier Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 22 hours ago, Trotter said: I've had a crack at the 12.40 at Lingfield ....... ratings compiled based on points for recent form, C and D, Age & Going, then used the above to convert into odds Value selections (10 runners) - Bet365 Accomplice - my odds 9/2 (my Favourite), current odds 13/2 EW shot Rogue Tide - my odds 12/1, current odds 33/1 The main problem is that this has taken me nearly an hour ......... so it's not practical to look at many races. Therefore pre-starting race selection is a big component. I just chose the first handicap on the AW but some thought would have to go into this aspect to pick 2 or 3 races maximum well done Trotter - doesn't matter if it took you an hour if you found a 40/1 winner ! Like everything in life with experience you'll get quicker and what a start ?? richard-westwood and Wildgarden 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 I'm sticking with AW handicaps for this and had a look at the 7.20 at Kempton Bit disappointed as nothing really stands out The market leaders look about right. I had Aldrich Bay as 4/1 Fav and the current price is 10/3 I had Coquetta as 7/1 joint second Fav and current odds are 8/1 The current 2nd Fav is My Boy Sepoy at 4/1. I had him as a 16/1 shot last night and to be fair he was much bigger odds last night ..... he's been heavily backed today from double figure prices and may well go off Favourite. This is probably the one if you're watching the market ! The ones that look bigger odds than my estimate are 50/1 Ithabella Fact - my odds 16/1 20/1 Nicks Not Wonder - my odds 7/1 Both of those are not very appealing so for my selection I've gone for 20/1 Twpsyn - my odds 11/1. BBBC, LEE-GRAYS and MCLARKE 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, richard-westwood said: Had a go at 415 kemp tomorrow ....used recent form ...form rating ....going ...dist ... Iesha should be 8/1 ....can get 16.0 betfair The good ting should be 6/1 ...can get 9.0 betfair I Good ting backed into 9/2 fav and wins ...iesha backed into 7 and finishes 3rd ......they are not always going to win but its pretty obvious it's doing a good job of measuring the value and the rest is luck but I'm looking forward to tackling some big races once things settle.....certainly worth the effort Just for the record I used 30% recent form 30% form rating 10 % dist 10% ground 20% handicap Edited January 13, 2021 by richard-westwood Villa Chris, vikki37, Trotter and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgarden Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 hour ago, richard-westwood said: Good ting backed into 9/2 fav and wins ...iesha backed into 7 and finishes 3rd ......they are not always going to win but its pretty obvious it's doing a good job of measuring the value and the rest is luck but I'm looking forward to tackling some big races once things settle.....certainly worth the effort Just for the record I used 30% recent form 30% form rating 10 % dist 10% ground 20% handicap Percentage on distance could be increased as it becomes more important in longer races perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgarden Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 On 1/10/2021 at 5:35 PM, richard-westwood said: One of the questions I've seen most on forums is how do you determine value ????.....so let's try an value experiment and see how it goes .... First of all you need to decided what is important and assign a percentage of importance ( which can be changed ) ....but the total must come to 100% so for this example I've assigned .... Last time out form (40 % ) 1st or 2nd 10pts 3rd or 4th 8pts 5th or 6th 6pts 7th or 8th 4pts 9th or worse 2pts So that assigns recent form and what points the horse scores later we will come back to that Last win official rating +-lbs ( this is for hcaps for this example ) (15%) Off this hcap mark .... Won 10pts 1lb above last win 8pts 2 or 3 lbs above last win 6pts 4 or 5 pts above last win 4pts 6 plus lbs above last win 2pts So that assigns how well hccapped the horse is Form on ground ( 15% ) Won on ground 10pts Placed on ground 8pts Won on near to today's ground I.e good if today's gd/soft 6pts Placed on near today's ground 4pts Ground not close 2pts Distance form (20%) Won dist 10pts Placed dist 8pts Won within 2f 6pts Placed within 2f 4pts No form 3f+ 2pts Fitness ( 10% ) Last run 14 to 28 days 10pts Last run 8 to 13 days 8pts Last run 29 to 42 days 6pts Last run 1 to 7 days 4pts Last run 43days plus 2pts Right that's all values assigned ....the percentage in brackets is the importance I've assigned to each section ....this can be changed by yourself but must total 100% overall We now come to the formula that works out value Value = ( 40 * last time score ) + ( 15 * last win o.r score ) + (15 * ground section score ) + ( 20 * distance score ) + (10 * fitness score ) Looks complicated but the first number in each bracket is the percentage you assigned to each group at the top .....multiplyed by the score your horse achieved in each section ...... So in the last time out section at the top if your horse finished 2nd last time it would score 10pts so the first bracket of the value formula would be ( 40 * 10 ) ...you carry on for each section to complete the formula Let's do a working example as this will make it clearer My horse finished 2nd last time ......is 2lbs above last win ......has placed on ground ......won at distance ......last ran 42 days ago Scores for each section are Last time 10pts 2lb above win 6pts Placed on ground 8pts Won at distance 10pts Last ran 42 days 6pts Now you plug those numbers into the value formula Value = ( 40*10 )+( 15*6)+(15*8)+(20*10)+(10*6) Next stage is to convert the first number in each bracket ( the percentage )..to a decimal by dividing it by 100 Value =( .4*10)+ (.15*6)+(.15 *8)+(.20*10)+ (.1*6) Note the first number is a decimal .5 etc Now work out each bracket with your calculator and add up Value = (4)+(.90)+(1.2)+(2)+(.6) Totals for all brackets = 8.7 so this is the value score for horse 1 You now do the same for other horses ....of course this can be done on computer or spreadsheet for speed and you just plug the numbers in Just for this example let's pretend it's a 3 horse race so each horse rated as follows Horse 1 8.7 Horse 2 7.8 Horse 3 8.1 You now add up the scores for all horses.....in this case its ...24.6 We are now gonna create a price for each horse by taking the score for each horse and dividing it by the total score Horse 1 8.7 /24.6 =0.353 Horse 2 7.8/24.6 =0.317 Horse 3 8.1 /24.6 =0.329 Times each score by 100 to get your final percentage value figure Horse 1 35% Horse 2 31% Horse 3 32% You can now convert this percentage to a price using brigadier chart above and compare your value price with the actual price on offer .....if the odds on offer are far higher then your onto a winner long term ......and that's value in a nutshell ? If you cant find the exact percentage price just go as close as you can and round up preferably to be safe Might be good to provide a spreadsheet some users could use for ease. My systems are all database type and use spreadsheet for the records after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Wildgarden said: Might be good to provide a spreadsheet some users could use for ease. My systems are all database type and use spreadsheet for the records after I really want to do one ....I'm doing 50 60 hour weeks at work currently but I have some holiday coming up in feb ....I really want to do one it would make things much easier ....shouldn't be too hard to do ....I think ? Edited January 13, 2021 by richard-westwood gbettle and BBBC 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Wildgarden said: Percentage on distance could be increased as it becomes more important in longer races perhaps. I've been sitting in my quiet moments thinking just that .....but then I have to reduce form ....or handicap rating etc ....each seems equally important .....I mean ....if a horse gets the distance ....but is not in form ....or badly hcapped then it doesnt win ......see the dilemma ?....but I agree it does make a big diff especially in the longer dist races .......maybe steal 5% from the hcap section ?....that might work ?.....do people think distance is as important as being well hcapped ?? Edited January 13, 2021 by richard-westwood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 8 hours ago, Trotter said: I'm sticking with AW handicaps for this and had a look at the 7.20 at Kempton Bit disappointed as nothing really stands out The market leaders look about right. I had Aldrich Bay as 4/1 Fav and the current price is 10/3 I had Coquetta as 7/1 joint second Fav and current odds are 8/1 The current 2nd Fav is My Boy Sepoy at 4/1. I had him as a 16/1 shot last night and to be fair he was much bigger odds last night ..... he's been heavily backed today from double figure prices and may well go off Favourite. This is probably the one if you're watching the market ! The ones that look bigger odds than my estimate are 50/1 Ithabella Fact - my odds 16/1 20/1 Nicks Not Wonder - my odds 7/1 Both of those are not very appealing so for my selection I've gone for 20/1 Twpsyn - my odds 11/1. Nick's not wonder hcap debut ....you had him on your list .....so the maths is working ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgarden Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, richard-westwood said: I've been sitting in my quiet moments thinking just that .....but then I have to reduce form ....or handicap rating etc ....each seems equally important .....I mean ....if a horse gets the distance ....but is not in form ....or badly hcapped then it doesnt win ......see the dilemma ?....but I agree it does make a big diff especially in the longer dist races .......maybe steal 5% from the hcap section ?....that might work ?.....do people think distance is as important as being well hcapped ?? Distance and weight more important in longer races form all my systems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 8 hours ago, Trotter said: The ones that look bigger odds than my estimate are 50/1 Ithabella Fact - my odds 16/1 20/1 Nicks Not Wonder - my odds 7/1 .......... WON 28/1 Both of those are not very appealing so for my selection I've gone for 20/1 Twpsyn - my odds 11/1. I think I'll have to dump this 'not very appealing' malarky and just go with the 'value' ..... which is the point of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Trotter said: I think I'll have to dump this 'not very appealing' malarky and just go with the 'value' ..... which is the point of this Can I ask trotter ....when you rated them was Nick's not wonder in the top 5 on percentage ....?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCLARKE Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Trotter said: I think I'll have to dump this 'not very appealing' malarky and just go with the 'value' ..... which is the point of this I only started making money when I ignored my personal opinion of a horse's chance and just went with the stats. Torque 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, richard-westwood said: Can I ask trotter ....when you rated them was Nick's not wonder in the top 5 on percentage ....?? yes ........ he was joint 2nd Aldrich Boy 20.4% Nicks Not Wonder 12.24% Coquetta 12.24% the next 3 were all on 8.6% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard-westwood Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, richard-westwood said: Can I ask trotter ....when you rated them was Nick's not wonder in the top 5 on percentage ....?? Actually im now noticing it's the total bracket figure ......was nick in the top 5 on that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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