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Racing Chat Thread


mowgli77
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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Toast Of New York will run on Lasix at Belmont next Saturday in the Belmont Derby: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/jul/01/talking-horses-todays-best-bets-and-all-the-latest-racing-news Personally I think it is a shame. In doing so, you clearly endorse the idea of that it is okay to basically dope your horse, because nothing less this is. Why else would you do it, if you wouldn't think it enhances the performance? To avoid lung bleeding? Surly not. Because back home in Europe this doesn't seem to be an issue. I don't hear trainers screaming for Lasix because their horses are bleeding all too much. And then what difference would Lasix made for one single start, if it would be only about avoiding bleeding, when in reality the benefit of it is thought to be avoid bleeding particularly in the long term, for horses that run often in quick successions? Right, none. It doesn't make sense in that respect for Toast Of New York. However, it makes sense from Jamie Osborne's point of view to that extent as Lasix does indeed enhance performance of horses, particularly for horses who haven't been on lasix before. That's a scientific fact. So that's why it is administered to Toast Of New York at Belmont. To squeeze something out of the horse, that wouldn't be there naturally. Not because of the danger of bleeding. It's a real shame in my eyes. It would have been great to see him running clean and then hopefully successful. Then it would have been something to note. I still remember Dunk last year, and her literally unbelievable performance at Arlington. She looked what you would call "on drugs", because she was. She clearly ran a couple of pounds better than she would have done naturally. This improvement was achieved through Lasix. She has never been that good before, and never again afterwards outside the US. And I don't talk about the win as such, which she was entitled to do. but more the way she did it...

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread I don't see what the problem is with using permitted medication. I don't have a background in medicine but reading many articles over the years I understand the are many benefits to using Lasix , so why not ? Also I have seen tens of thousands of races and I cannot distinguish one horse from another. If you put a 45 rated horse next a Group 1 champion I would struggle to say which was which , they all look the same to me , so I don't know how anyone can tell by looking at a horse that it is on drugs.

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

I don't see what the problem is with using permitted medication. I don't have a background in medicine but reading many articles over the years I understand the are many benefits to using Lasix , so why not ? Also I have seen tens of thousands of races and I cannot distinguish one horse from another. If you put a 45 rated horse next a Group 1 champion I would struggle to say which was which , they all look the same to me , so I don't know how anyone can tell by looking at a horse that it is on drugs.
I suppose I was maybe not clear enough which resulted in you not getting quite get the right context. I don't mean "looks like on drugs" literally in terms of how the horse looks, but how the performance looked like that day:" I still remember Dunk last year, and her literally unbelievable performance at Arlington. She looked what you would call "on drugs", because she was. She clearly ran a couple of pounds better than she would have done naturally. This improvement was achieved through Lasix. She has never been that good before, and never again afterwards outside the US. And I don't talk about the win as such, which she was entitled to do. but more the way she did it..." Lasix is not a permitted drug in European racing as (pre-)race day medication, and is not used in training either - with very few exceptions (we are speaking of around 0.1% of the English horse population). It even is on the list of the World Anti-Doping Agency - for humans of course, just to put the context right. Otherwise, the question why not... well it is answered in my post above. Because it is a performance enhancer. And that is the point I made above - the only reason why it is given to TONY, is to enhance his performance in an unnatural way on the race day. It has nothing to do with medical benefits. Lasix indeed has health benefits (however also many severe side effects), it can prevent horses from bleeding, of course. However, it has to be administered regularly, and then can have particularly a benefit for horses that run many races in succession in that sense, because horses that run more often, are more likely to suffer from bleeding. Yet there is only a small percentage of horses within the population in either Europe or the US that actually do suffer from bleeding, with or without Lasix. I'm not aware that TOFNY has a career mapped out in the US in the future. Means, he won't be able to get his regular "Lasix threat". so it makes no sense to give it to him for only this one day, if it would be only about health benefits. However the obvious reason is he get it for this run because it is performance enhancing for horses that haven't been on it before. Lasix makes you lose weight quickly (water effectively) without losing muscle mass. And is for that reason particularly effective the closer it is administered to a race - best on race day in fact of course. As it makes you lighter, in the same you stay as strong as you are (that's why it is particularly often used by strength athletes too). That is a clear advantage, obviously. It can also makes a horse run beyond it's pain threshold. And it can also be used as a masking agent, to make it impossible to detect other (illegal) drugs administered. Widely used by human athletes for that reason - and it would be naive to think the noble racing world wouldn't do the same in my mind. But you're right, off course it is permitted to use if you race in the USA, so TOFNY is entitled to use it as well for his run. BUT that is the point that I tried to explain - that is exactly what I don't like. I'd love to see this horse running clean, to its natural ability, and not a form that is infiltrated by the use of a drug. Also there are reasons why it isn't allowed in Europe, and why the US had initiated a process of banning it from their jurisdiction too - only to make a step backwards again unfortunately because of greedy owners and trainers. It is a performance enhancer in the end. Not a natural one. Two interesting article in that context: http://businessofracing.blogspot.ie/2011/06/science-of-lasix-view-from-summit.html http://cangamble.blogspot.ie/2011/07/lasix-pros-and-cons.html Ad interesting comment in the Irish Independet a while ago: http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/lasix-use-remains-a-stain-on-racings-character-29561513.html Btw. I'm obsessed with the topic of doping in sport, just FYI. ;)
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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Ground surely won't be an issue. He already won on soft ground and on genuine good - don't think quicker would be a problem either. Not often you'll see an easier winner of a Group one. 11 lengths while eased down in the closing stages (if it wouldn't have been for the badly hanging to the left and ridden out he would have won by 20 maybe?) - that's almost Frankel like. And it wasn't a poor field today, in fact some pretty decent animals been in the line-up. He has to prove it now on the international stage of course, but given the fact hat he is so lightly raced, there is a good chance that there is still more to come. I'm absolutely excited personally and so happy that German racing is clearly on the up. I'd love to see a race over 12f on genuine good ground with Australia, Free Eagle and Sea The Moon. You might want to throw in Kingston Hill too - and we would have a race for the ages!

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Yeah Kingston Hill probably best with juice in the ground and a good pace but I think as long as the pace is strong he can run equally well on genuine good ground. Really liked his gutsy performance in the Derby. Think pace is just absolute key to his chances and he was never suited by the test the Eclipse provided at Sandown. He looks an out and out stayer to me and I tend to think the Ledger would be his race.

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread I'm pretty disappointed to hear the Fugue has been retired, I really liked her, was hoping she'd turn up to to the York Juddmonte or Irish Champion Stakes. All to often we hear top class horses who have had a major loss endure an injury during a top race thus indicating we should write that performance off. I had a major bet in the Eclipse and thought it was a very very poor Group 1, not in terms of the entrants, but in terms of the poor tactics employed by the major players. I thought it was very poorly judged by W Buick who I rate as a very competent jockey. Is it possible connections are retiring her to preserve her legacy by saying she was injured during the race? The public don't really know one way or the other, in a way they are like political statements, sometimes truth and sometimes bullsh!t. I'm sure many of you suspect similar going on with other top horses over the years. How about last year's 2000 winner Dawn Approach, was fav in the Derby, I think Kevin Manning possibly made sure it came stone cold last so the race could be written off because it wasn't going to win. They said he banged his head upon leaving the stalls which explained his poor performance. I just think he was eased off to discard the race from his then unbeaten race record and therefore ensure his stud fees would not be affected by non staying. Only a few days later, despite enduring an injury he turns up to the Gr1 St James Palace Stakes,4 furlongs shorter and won it!!! How about Canford Cliffs? As a 4YO Coolmore bought into him to secure breeding rights, ran in the Sussex Stakes where some fancied him to beat Frankel, when beaten a statement was issued saying he was injured in the race and retire, meaning the race should be ignored and he could have possibly heated Frankel therefore giving the illusion he was a super horse. Of course I'm purely speculating, but sometimes don't you think when high stud fees are at stake that some injuries are fabricated to ensure a horses legacy?

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

I'm pretty disappointed to hear the Fugue has been retired, I really liked her, was hoping she'd turn up to to the York Juddmonte or Irish Champion Stakes. All to often we hear top class horses who have had a major loss endure an injury during a top race thus indicating we should write that performance off. I had a major bet in the Eclipse and thought it was a very very poor Group 1, not in terms of the entrants, but in terms of the poor tactics employed by the major players. I thought it was very poorly judged by W Buick who I rate as a very competent jockey. Is it possible connections are retiring her to preserve her legacy by saying she was injured during the race? The public don't really know one way or the other, in a way they are like political statements, sometimes truth and sometimes bullsh!t. I'm sure many of you suspect similar going on with other top horses over the years. How about last year's 2000 winner Dawn Approach, was fav in the Derby, I think Kevin Manning possibly made sure it came stone cold last so the race could be written off because it wasn't going to win. They said he banged his head upon leaving the stalls which explained his poor performance. I just think he was eased off to discard the race from his then unbeaten race record and therefore ensure his stud fees would not be affected by non staying. Only a few days later, despite enduring an injury he turns up to the Gr1 St James Palace Stakes,4 furlongs shorter and won it!!! How about Canford Cliffs? As a 4YO Coolmore bought into him to secure breeding rights, ran in the Sussex Stakes where some fancied him to beat Frankel, when beaten a statement was issued saying he was injured in the race and retire, meaning the race should be ignored and he could have possibly heated Frankel therefore giving the illusion he was a super horse. Of course I'm purely speculating, but sometimes don't you think when high stud fees are at stake that some injuries are fabricated to ensure a horses legacy?
Canford Cliffs was a super horse fella, agree with some of what your saying though. He was special
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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread K.Dalgleish sends out INCURS FOUR FAULTS for the second last at Hamilton on Saturday night, Horse is pulled up by Raul Da Silva, watched the race a few times, nothing looks wrong, couldn't have been anything as he then sends the horse out again today and it wins, but wins today under Joe Fanning. http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/results/12-07-2014/hamilton-park/result/628142/sunday-mail-handicap http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/results/17-07-2014/hamilton-park/result/628941/totepool-home-of-pool-betting-handicap Today in the 4:35 at Brighton, backed sword of the lord, once with Michael Bell, now with George Margarson, would love to know why the horse changed yards, and apart from that it looks a totally different animal this year, W.T.D pulled it up today, again on watching the race a few times nothing looked worth pulling him up for, unless it was the going, WTD doesn't look down or give any sign as to why he pulled him up. Yes I.m talking out my pocket, but again, this game sure does STINK at times. http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/results/17-07-2014/brighton/result/628924/gatwick-airport-handicap

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread All week the Racing Post have been hyping Tagroohda for the Irish Oaks devoting plenty of column space with headlines such as "XXX as low as 1/2 for the Irish Oaks" and quoting one bookie saying 99% of all bets have been on this horse , even today they devoted page 2 and again saying 99.5% of all bets have been on Tagroohda. When you read these articles it persuades seem punters to lump on as if its a certainty. What happens ? Late this morning they announce she is going for the King George instead. How often have they hyped up a horse only for it to not turn up ? How often do we see horses hyped up on a Monday or Tuesday and have their price slashed only to be even bigger on the day of the race. Its no secret the Racing Post is partly funded by the bookies but way they get mug punters to have poor bets is ridiculous. Luckily for me I didn't have a penny on but I was very tempted to lump on at 4/5 on Monday.

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

All week the Racing Post have been hyping Tagroohda for the Irish Oaks devoting plenty of column space with headlines such as "XXX as low as 1/2 for the Irish Oaks" and quoting one bookie saying 99% of all bets have been on this horse , even today they devoted page 2 and again saying 99.5% of all bets have been on Tagroohda. When you read these articles it persuades seem punters to lump on as if its a certainty. What happens ? Late this morning they announce she is going for the King George instead. How often have they hyped up a horse only for it to not turn up ? How often do we see horses hyped up on a Monday or Tuesday and have their price slashed only to be even bigger on the day of the race. Its no secret the Racing Post is partly funded by the bookies but way they get mug punters to have poor bets is ridiculous. Luckily for me I didn't have a penny on but I was very tempted to lump on at 4/5 on Monday.
I see what you mean, they were making a big deal out of it & almost luring mug punters in. But at the same time the RP isn't forcing people to bet on it, they're informing punters. I know afew people who were talking up its chances and lumped on the 4/5 & now they've done their nuts without even getting a run for their money. I think it's a lesson learnt, not to jump onto odds on favourites ante post & not to be too drawn in with what the papers put up.
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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Another result that must has been settled over an afternoon gin & tonic. 19:15 Epsom, Roll up mugs, roll up [h=4]Full Result[/h][TABLE=class: tbl t3 mobile-collapse, width: 100%]

[TR] [TH=align: center]Pos[/TH] [TH=align: center]Dist[/TH] [TH=class: ixt]Horse[/TH] [TH=class: ixt]Trainer[/TH] [TH=align: center]Age[/TH] [TH=align: center]Weight[/TH] [TH=class: ixt]Jockey[/TH] [TH=class: mobile-hdn, align: center]SP[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]1st (5)[/TD] [TD=align: center][/TD] [TD=class: ixt]1 Faithful Creek (IRE)[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]B J Meehan[/TD] [TD=align: center]2[/TD] [TD=align: center]9-5[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]G Baker[/TD] [TD=class: mobile-hdn, align: center]10/1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]2nd (4)[/TD] [TD=align: center]1¾[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]3 Silver Ranger[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]Richard Hannon[/TD] [TD=align: center]2[/TD] [TD=align: center]9-5[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]P J Dobbs[/TD] [TD=class: mobile-hdn, align: center]5/6f[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]3rd (3)[/TD] [TD=align: center]8[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]5 Water Thief (USA)[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]M Johnston[/TD] [TD=align: center]2[/TD] [TD=align: center]9-5[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]Martin Lane[/TD] [TD=class: mobile-hdn, align: center]8/1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]4th (6)[/TD] [TD=align: center][/TD] [TD=class: ixt]2 Red Rubles (IRE)[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]A M Balding[/TD] [TD=align: center]2[/TD] [TD=align: center]9-5[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]David Probert[/TD] [TD=class: mobile-hdn, align: center]2/1[/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: disabled] [TD=align: center]NR (2)[/TD] [TD=align: center][/TD] [TD=class: ixt]6 Mary Ann Bugg (IRE)[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]P S McEntee[/TD] [TD=align: center]2[/TD] [TD=align: center]9-0[/TD] [TD=class: ixt]Danny Brock (5)[/TD] [TD=class: mobile-hdn, align: center]sui.gif 100/1[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [h=1][/h] [h=1][/h][h=1][/h]
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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Didn't want to start a new thread to mention this but Solar Spirit is turned out quickly and Robert Winston goes to Ponty for just the one ride in the last. This one has been running over 7f and drops back to 6f, has won well here before and wasn't disgraced when 4th here earlier in the season. Getting frustrating to back and possibly held by the handicapper off 75 and could want a drop of rain but trainer has her horses in form and main danger could be Diamond Blue, might be worth a small reverse forecast.

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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

K.Dalgleish sends out INCURS FOUR FAULTS for the second last at Hamilton on Saturday night, Horse is pulled up by Raul Da Silva, watched the race a few times, nothing looks wrong, couldn't have been anything as he then sends the horse out again today and it wins, but wins today under Joe Fanning. http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/results/12-07-2014/hamilton-park/result/628142/sunday-mail-handicap http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/results/17-07-2014/hamilton-park/result/628941/totepool-home-of-pool-betting-handicap Today in the 4:35 at Brighton, backed sword of the lord, once with Michael Bell, now with George Margarson, would love to know why the horse changed yards, and apart from that it looks a totally different animal this year, W.T.D pulled it up today, again on watching the race a few times nothing looked worth pulling him up for, unless it was the going, WTD doesn't look down or give any sign as to why he pulled him up. Yes I.m talking out my pocket, but again, this game sure does STINK at times. http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/results/17-07-2014/brighton/result/628924/gatwick-airport-handicap
From why they ran badly on the BHA site....
Raul Da Silva, the rider of INCURS FOUR FAULTS, which was pulled up, reported that his saddle began to slip approximately four furlongs out and although he had managed to get it back into position, it again slipped backwards two furlongs out and he felt it prudent to pull the gelding up.
William Twiston-Davies, the rider of SWORD OF THE LORD, unplaced, reported that his saddle slipped.
So there's your excuses, it would seem that a refresher in how to correctly saddle a horse may be in order.
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Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

From why they ran badly on the BHA site.... So there's your excuses, it would seem that a refresher in how to correctly saddle a horse may be in order.
Cheers. Great to know my money and other punters cash went down the drain because tack wasn't put on properly, why do we bother at times. Wonder what would be said if the man at kwik fit hand tightened a few wheel nuts on your next tyre change, of course, sh1t happens eh.
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  • BillyHills changed the title to Racing Chat Thread

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