Another Hand for you to decide on?

[chala]

Lost out the other night quite big on a hand. At first I thought I was unlucky, but the more I think about it, I think I probably played it badly. So I thought I'd open it up to the PL and see what you guys think. Right, first things first, it was a $0.25/0.50 CASH game on bet365 with 10 players at the table. I get dealt 66 in seat 2 or 3. Now maybe I should have thrown this straight away, but I thought I'd raise it, knowing that a half decent raise is usually good enough to go heads up with someone. I will say now that if I had, had 2 callers I probably would have folded, 3 or more I definately would have folded. So I raised $2, it was folded round to the middle where I was reraised $5, everyone else folded and I called for $3. Now I probably should have folded after the reraise, but as it was gonna be a heads up game, I thought I'd just see the flop, maybe bet a rag flop, otherwise fold. The Flop came: QJ6 He bets $10, I put him on either a pair of Q's or J's with a decent Kicker, or AK. So I reraise him $20, he goes all in and I call. He turns over KK, turn's a 5, river's a K. Now I'm not crying over getting beat, as he had a better starting hand than me and probably deserved to win it, but I thought I had every right to go with it once I hit the three 6's. How would you have played it? Folded it straight away, fold after the prefolp reraise? Fold after the flop all in? Or do you think I was right to play the hand? Comments good or bad (but not to bad:tongue2 ) appreciated. :ok

[aliensyndm]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? OK I'll run the risk of a bunch cnuts telling me to shut up and give you my views. Firstly I wouldn't get carried away raising hands like 66 too often. It can be good once in a while for deceptive purposes, but unless you hit a 6, you're gonna be beaten most of the time, especially if there is more than 1 person in. You wanna get in cheap with these hands and hit your six, if Q , K or A flops etc you'll get action off that and get paid. OK I don't know anything about the people you were playing against, so some assumptions will have to be made but anyway... The re-raise to 5 is an indication of a pretty strong hand. Straight away I would be thinking AA KK or QQ. Possibly AK but it's much more like to be one of the other three I would have said. OK you get your 6, it's gonna be pretty hard to get off this hand now, especially heads up. OK he bets $10. Now think bank to what I said he may have before. $10 is a pot sized bet here, if he had AA or KK it's the kind of bet he would make. Now QQ is a possible hand he could have, going from his preflop raise, BUT, the advantage of postion shows here......you would perhaps expect him if he has flopped QQQ to check that, rather than bet it. This would lead me to believe he does not have QQ, the hand I would be most concerned about. Is the person a loose player ? Would he re-raise you pre-flop with AK or AQ ? If so the AQ would also bet 10, an AK may bet 10 trying to bluff acting like he had KK or AA as well. A loose player may also have re-raised with JJ, but for the same reasons you would expect a check rather than a pot sized bet. In short the person is likely to play AQ, KK, AA , possibly even AJ the same way. He's gonna play QQ or JJ differently. Notice how though that having better position you get a good indication of which he has for free, ie bet = AA or KK, check = QQ (or JJ) Bearing that in mind indeed I would have raised his inital bet, as you did and would have shoved my whole stack in on that as well. Now you said he deserved to win it, no he didn't. All the money on the hand went in when you were ahead. Only a little money went in when you were behind. He caught a king, it's a piggy, but it's the way it goes.

[GreenPlasticWateringCan]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? After the flop, having made trips, I would probably have done the same, and if your opponent is on JJ or QQ, well that's poker. I'm not sure I really like raising in early position with 66 - it depends on what the table was like. If there was not a lot of preflop raising, but a lot of calling, and you thought there was a chance of seeing a flop just by calling, then I would have maybe called and hoped to hit a 6. If this wasn't the case, however, I would have considered folding. Raising wasnt a terrible play though i dont think, as there is obviously the chance you might win the pot right there, and also if one or two people just call, you will often win the pot by betting after the flop (regardless of whether you hit your 6). However, you were in early position and put a raise in, suggesting to everyone at the table that you had a strong hand (unless you had been raising with weak hands previously, which i assume you hadnt been). Like i said previously, if everyone folds then great, if you get a couple of callers then that's fine too, but I would almost surely have folded having been reraised that amount. Because the guy knew you must have had a hand, and then reraised you like that, I would have put him on a BIG hand, i.e. high pair or AK (and maybe AQ or AJ). By calling, either you have to hit something on the flop, or you have to be confident that you can outplay him if you don't hit anything. You will make trips on the flop just over 10% of the time i think, and if you do then great. However in the much more likely event that you dont hit anything, then because he is probably on a very big hand, and reraised preflop, he is almost always gonna raise on the flop, and you will probably have to fold. Small pocket pairs are good if you are in late position and can see a flop cheaply and hope to hit trips. However id say regularly raising with them from early position will get you into trouble. Im certainly not a poker expert, so the responses of the regular posters here is probably better than mine, but I hope that helps :ok By the way i notice you're from Bristol - i'm at uni there (at home for easter at the moment though). You might be interested in this: http://poker.meetup.com/321/ I've only been to one game so far (let's just say i, erm, didn't win :lol) but I had a good time, and will hopefully go to a couple more games when my exams are done. If you're looking for some friendly live games every week or so, then it's worth registering :ok

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? I wouldn't have raised with 66 pre flop in early position. I probably wouldn't raise with that hand pre flop in any position in a cash game. Other than that I would have seen the flop with a call and then bet the hand out pretty much like you did. It was a bad beat as you were ahead when most of the money went in. However it's hard for him to fold KK with a QJ6 flop as he has the top pair. He might be reading you for a straight draw, two pair or for a set. He's hoping that you have a pair of Q's though. He was wrong and he got lucky.

[dave]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? Same as Gett1n. IMO it's best to either see the flop cheap with small PPs, or fold them. Once you got to the flop you did nothing wrong, but you should really not have seen the flop after his re-raise I don't think.

[aliensyndm]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? I'd disagree with that dave, it was definitely worth seeing the flop after his re-raise for implied odds. He obviously has a good hand and isn't gonna get off it easily. If you do hit your 6, it's likely the guy will lose his whole stack to it. Which is what nearly happened, he shoved all his money in way behind, but got lucky. I'll call any pocket pairs. A pocket pair is also a good hand to call a raise with. Dangerous hands to call raises with are things like AQ, AJ, 1010,JJ Note the 1010 and JJ are dangerous because the flop can come 9 high and you might thinj you are winning. Which you maybe. But it can land you in trouble, you have to be careful with those hands. If you hit an ace with AQ or AJ you could be behind to AK, a likely raising hand. If you hit a Q or a J with AQ or AJ you could be behind to KK AA or even QQ or JJ, again likley raising hands. If you are going to call raisers you have to watch you aren't playing the same cards, and if you are, make sure yours are better. It's better to call a raise with something like 44, 66 than AQ. AQ is usually a fold if someone raises, especially a tight player. It's gonna get you in trouble. Pocket pairs are much better for calling raises with. I like calling raises with them cos when your pp hits you often get a double through off the guy. If a player raises with KK say and you call with 44, a flop of say 10,8,4 is gonna lose him his whole stack. On the other hand, if you call his raise with AQ and a flop of Q,7,2 comes down it's you who's in trouble. OK you may argue what if both players sets hit. Eg KK and 44 with a K84 flop. Well firstly it's very unlikely, ok it's a risk you take but I mean poker is a a calculated risk. You can't not call because of worrying about things like that. The main point is calling with hands you shouldn't that will just get you into trouble, AQ, AJ , A10, QK, KJ, etc. Better to call with suited connectors than those hands. As usual position helps a great deal. If someone raises and you call with 77 say. Flop comes out Q85. Now if he is first to act you can see if he's gonna bet the pot and represent AQ, KK, AA or whatever. Or if he checks it, which could be a hand like AK missing the flop. Raising with low cards can be good for deception occasionally. You can pick up some nice pots with it. But I wouldn't do it too often. It keeps people guessing as to what you have. Otherwise you become too readable. An example is a player jezza pointed out to me on wagerlogic called "domo". If he has AQ, AK, QQ, KK, AA any of the "high" hands he will do a healthy pre-flop raise, and he wont ever throw the cards away now regardless of the flop. If he has AK and misses the flop he'll play it like it's AA. But when he does this, you know exactly what you are up against. Should the flop be 944 you dont have to worry about a 9 or a 4. Raising with low cards every now and then keeps people guessing. Remember many internet players find it impossible to fold hands like KK or AA regardless of the flop and betting. Use this to your advantage.

[Jezza]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? Hi chala, It looks to me like you got a bit unlucky in this hand but its best to start from the beginning... Firstly, I would not have raised preflop with 66 on a cash table full ring game. If you do this you will win a few very small pots(the blinds!) and then generally when you are called you wont win very much. You want to put yourself in a position on cash tables to win large pots and to take a large pot down with 66 you will need to hit a "set" on the flop. If you do this then ideally you will want a good chance of getting paid off and many people in the pot so just limping here would have been the best play probably. Note this is totally different from tournament play when the blinds are huge, say the big blind was 10 times your entire stack - then I would def raise with 66! But this is cash game play and very different. If I was playing with only 1 or 2 others in a cash game (shorthanded) I might well have raised there as well, but here I would definately have limped. Ok anyway leaving that I would definately have not have folded preflop here, this is the sort of hand that wont really get you into "trouble" that often - you are either going to hit a great hand or miss so I would always try to be in. When you are reraised you can be pretty sure you are up against a large pocket pair (prob AA or KK). Now what you have to look at here is the size of his stack and the size of your stack. If he has AA or KK then he is probably not going to let go of it and you can "bust" him with your 66 if you flop a set. However it is not that likely you will flop one, it only happens 1 in 8.5 times when you see the flop with a pocket pair so you want to be sure you will get paid off correctly if you hit (the old adage of finding the value in gambling). Knowing you have about a 13% chance of hitting I would look to be having at least 10* extra in his stack than the reraise you are calling (and of course your stack has to be able to match it - this is why I like deep stacked cash games and never short buy). 10* or more is what to look for as it also accounts for the horrible times the flop will come HISSETxYOURSET - not likely but does occasionly or you flop a set and he outdraws you on the turn/river. In the games I play most people raise to 20 dollars to go with 400 behind them so getting 20* odds is good. You had to call a reraise of 3 dollars, so I would be looking for at least 30 more behind him (and you able to match) - any less I would fold and if he had more then all the better. Ok so on the flop you have made your set....happy days. If he has AA or KK (like we think so from the reraise) then you are getting his money. You were second to go and raising him there and then is fine, he moves all in and you call having all the money committed basically when you are a 90% favourite to his 10%. I can see he had at least 30 more from the figures you provide so you did get "value" in calling his reraise. You can count yourself unlucky here chala as this is a true bad beat (he might think he deserved to win but you were the one with the bad beat) - this is because all the money was put into the pot when YOU were the big favourite (90% I think from the top of my head - approx anyway) - he just got lucky to outdraw you. Basically, 9 times out of 10 you would have won a huge pot for your table here mate - keep playing like this and you will do fine. As a side note you were second to go here and raising on the flop is fine as he is sure to think his KK is good. But if you were first to go on the flop then leading out and betting is the best play. He would have RAISED you there and then and you can either move in on him there or check-raise the turn depending on how big his stack was. Too many alsoran players will check their set on the flop to the raiser thinking they are being cheeky and although this is the correct play occasionly (against a perpetual raiser who prob doesnt have very much) - against someone with AA or KK it is far better to lead out and bet as they will just go nuts raising. Someone checking a flop to me and then livening up later on just screams I HAVE A MONSTER - the lead out and bet is totally "noone expects the spanish inquisition". Jez

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on?

Someone checking a flop to me and then livening up later on just screams I HAVE A MONSTER - the lead out and bet is totally "noone expects the spanish inquisition".

:lol

[chala]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? Cheers for the replies guys, some nice points for me to consider. I do now think my early position raise was probably the wrong call. I am usually one to limp in with low PP's (been playing too much tournament poker recently methinks). My main reason for the early raise, was because I was pretty sure that I would end up heads up with another player (the table was pretty tight), if I didn't I would have folded. Once I got heads up, I just hoped he wasn't on a PP like me. Can anyone tell me the odds of my PP going up against someone with 2 overcards?

[Jezza]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on? It changes slightly depending on the exact pocket pair and the exact overcards (only a slight change mind you) but roughly, if you both see it all the way to the river the pocket pair is about a 52% favourite to the overcards 48% Jez

[chala]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on?

By the way i notice you're from Bristol - i'm at uni there (at home for easter at the moment though). You might be interested in this: http://poker.meetup.com/321/ I've only been to one game so far (let's just say i, erm, didn't win :lol) but I had a good time, and will hopefully go to a couple more games when my exams are done. If you're looking for some friendly live games every week or so, then it's worth registering :ok

Cheers for that GreenPlasticWateringCan. I do play live games with a group of mates most wednesdays now (managed to get them all hooked :D ). And seen as I'm still working at Laddies :wall and with night racing fast approaching I might be short of free time, but if I get some, I'll give it a look. Good Luck with the exams. :ok

[GreenPlasticWateringCan]

Re: Another Hand for you to decide on?

Cheers for that GreenPlasticWateringCan. I do play live games with a group of mates most wednesdays now (managed to get them all hooked :D ). And seen as I'm still working at Laddies :wall and with night racing fast approaching I might be short of free time, but if I get some, I'll give it a look. Good Luck with the exams. :ok

Thanks :ok - i'll need all the luck I can get :( . I play every weekend or two with a few mates from uni (although for VERY small stakes i.e. £2/3 buy-in as they aren't really up for paying any more), so it's good to play a "proper" game every now and then (as to be honest my mates arent very good :lol). Like I said i've only been to one game, but it was pretty good, and 40+ people are members now so whenever there's a game it's usually a full table of people (2 tables when I played). I'm registered as Kaz on the site by the way, who knows maybe i'll see you at a home game some time in the next few months :)