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Argument hand


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Re: Argument hand

Ermmm - read your quote, then read Jezza's quote. One answers the other. Simple really.
gett1n you are misunderstanding what jezza is saying. He is saying if he had AK he would have probably just flat called my bet of 110 and called my bets all the way down to the river. He is not saying he would have called with the AK after my all in raise.
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Re: Argument hand Yes very true, but as I have already mentioned this was right at the beginning with blinds at the minimum. Be plenty more chances to get the majority of your chips in when you are more confident about being in front. Had this happened at a different stage of a tournament, then it is a different matter entirely. But in my description of the hand I stated the blind sizes and the relative chips stacks which I think you have to take into consideration.

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Re: Argument hand Dunno about that. Sometimes I decide to play looser earlier on for two reasons. a) Most people play tight early (like you and Alien) so I can nick some pots. b) I hate spending 3 hours on the computer playing a tourney and ending up with nothing. For this reason I often make a stand early to get some chips or to get out and not waste my time. I don't always play like this. Depends on the stake, the number of players and the prize.

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Re: Argument hand Sorry to bring this back up but I wasn't there and only just had a chance to read through it. In response to aliens first post I agree it was a ‘dodgy’ call. I think alien is one of the better poker players on here and any comments he made about my play I would take as constructive (and think about) even if its not nice hearing him say ‘awful call’. Knowing a little about aliens poker play I don’t think I would have called – from his play I think there is little chance AK would be ahead. Seeing how the hand was played out I just don’t see how you could put him on anything less than 2 pair at that point therefore the call is a bad one. Saying "look who won the pot?" is silly – the K coming on the river does not make it a good call and obviously there is not a good chance of a K appearing. I agree with Jezza that the re-raise all in from alien should be respected and folding the AK would be the right play at that stage in the game. Gett1n, I don’t see how alien not giving advice at the tables is good. That’s one of the reasons we do the PL tournies I think - to have a laugh and learn from each other. Also having read Jezza’s post re calling with the AK I do think you have mis-read it. "As for the AK well I would probably just have called you down if I had had that. " – maybe he can clarify? But I get the impression he means calling the initial 110 bet rather than the all in. Alien you’re a smart guy and I hope you do continue to offer your thoughts on plays you see – that’s one of the reasons for this forum. If you think you’ve seen a bad play I want to hear about it and see people discuss it. Well done on winning it by the way :dude

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Re: Argument hand I didn't say 'who won the pot?' immediately, anyone at the table can request hand history and see that I said it almost 10 hands later as Alien wouldn't shut up about it and to be quite honest with you it does get annoying when someone gets beat and can't let it slip. I offer anyone else to go and look back at when I said this quote and you will see it was a long time after I won. Why doesn't anyone realise I had the highest pair with an ace kicker and there were two more cards yet to be drawn. Poker is all about risk and that is what I played. I don't like having to explain my actions but that is the way I play I felt there was either going to be another Ace or King coming out due to there only being one other person still in. He raised and tried to get me to fold and I didn't so technically the real 'awful call' was Alien raising to try and get me to fold.

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Re: Argument hand Ok well I will try to clarify... If I held the AK here I cannot say for SURE what I would have done however it seems to me there are two ways it can only be played. 1) If I had raised alien on the flop like equinoxx did and he comes back over the top all in then I would have had to muck it fearing either a set of 6s or top two pair. I really dont see alien putting his whole tournament at risk this early when I have shown some obvious strength by raising him without having AK beat - folding would have been the only option. 2) Just calling on the flop - This is not bad as it does not let alien know what I have - I wouldnt have thought he was semibluffing a flush draw in that early a position so he could well put me on that. He might wonder if I am slowplaying a set of 6s? Or if I have the ace as well? By doing this I can see the turn and aliens play on it and make my decision then as to if my AK is good. If a heart had fallen then alien would have probably checked - I would have invariably bet (not quite sure if I was bluffing the flush or betting for value!! - either way my hand would have been very disguised) and then who knows what would have happened - if I had been called then the river was going check-check for sure. If the K had come off on the turn then I would have probably tried to extract some goodness from mr syndms stack. If however the most probable thing had fallen, a total blank, then I would have had to weigh up the situation after I had seen what alien did. If he had bet a little (unlikely) I would have just called him down again but if he had gone for a big bet (likely I feel) then I would have had to strongly consider the possibility of AJ or even 66. Whenever I think about this hand I sway between option 1 and 2 as to how I think I would have played it in the heat of the moment. In honesty I think I would have played the advantage of position and just called alien on the flop and taken it from there like I said before. I could however well have just clicked the minimum raise to find out where I was....alien would have come right back over the top and I would have folded Jez

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Re: Argument hand Norfolk. Whilst this hand was not played on my table I did come in on the argument afterwards. Here are my observations. a) Alien was not giving constructive advice he was bleating like a baby about percentages and awful calls. The whole of the table took exception to his attitude because of his manner. Trying to justify this as 'constructively trying to help' after the event is a poor attempt to cover up a grumpy strop. As equinoxx said - he wouldn't let it drop for ages. b) Alien often comments on other peoples play. I remember going 'all in' UTG on KK early in one of the PL tourneys. I got no callers and showed my cards. Aliens comment was "Shit play". In other words this is typical of his commentary. c) The PL tourneys are supposed to be a friendly, banter filled tourney. It was not the place for tantrums - which is what was thrown. d) Aliens comment about people working from 9 to 5 for a living was another theme of the comments made at the table. This provoked a jokey response from me and a few others which Alien is now trying to use as me getting personal first :lol - I didn't even start that vein of conversation - I just happened to have a corking put down! :tongue2 e) Read my first posts on this thread. They are constructive and not argumentative at all. Then see how Alien turns it into an argument and you will get the flavour of what happened at the table. I haven't bothered with reading Jezza's post again - not because I might have misunderstood - but because there is no point arguing with Alien about anything. It would carry on for pages and pages and pages and I just don't see the point (Plus I would get the blame). f) When people want advice they will ask for it - they don't want it rammed down their throats. I often ask Jezza how he would have played a hand if he watches me because I respect his ability and the way he instructs. Alien might be a cracking player but his way of showing it isn't they way I want to hear it - and judging by everyones reaction to his manner at the table 95% of PL members seem to agree. Lastly - this isn't even my argument. I just posted (what I thought) to be a very reasonable answer on this thread and old Alien went off his head (AGAIN). Please don't try and make me the bad guy again because that old chestnut of me being to blame for every altercation is getting very tiring. Like I say - please go back to page one and see my first two posts and the smiley emoticons and you will see this thread turned into an argument because someone else was gunning for one - not me. :D

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Re: Argument hand Should have called this thread GUNFIGHT AT THE AK CORAL ps Nobodys mentioned my AK all in against Doddsy ;) One of the best AK all ins this side of the Mississippi delta even had Alien up and whooping like one of the audience off Opra :loon :rollin

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Re: Argument hand Ooooohhhh what alot to reply to.... Ok equinoxx I'll start with you,

Why doesn't anyone realise I had the highest pair with an ace kicker and there were two more cards yet to be drawn. Poker is all about risk and that is what I played. I don't like having to explain my actions but that is the way I play I felt there was either going to be another Ace or King coming out due to there only being one other person still in. He raised and tried to get me to fold and I didn't so technically the real 'awful call' was Alien raising to try and get me to fold.
Ok so what if the turn or river was an ace ? It's not helped you has it ? My raise was wanting called from a hand like AK. That's why I did it, to make sure my chips were in when i was ahead, which I was 96% sure I was. You look at the position and assess risk etc, and how the betting has gone. Committing your whole stack so early on , on a "draw" is pretty bad poker I would say. Did you think you were behind but hoped for an ace or king to come out ? If so that's very poor play. If you called because you thought you were beating me well I would say that is bad judgement and assessment of the situation, next time perhaps you'll play it differently. You think I made an awful raise there then ? Well sorry but find me a poker player worth his salt and ask him and see if they think it's an awful raise. You still did say "who won the pot", regardless of when you said it. As if that justifies the call. I was still talking about the hand yeah, but people kept replying. I said awful call, everyone said it wasn't so I replied trying to explain why. Why is that such a bad thing ? Why am I being so heavily criticised for it ? Don't forget there's every chance someone has folded the other three kings pre-flop or just there, you can't assume cos everyone is out the kings(or aces) are still in ! And now Gett1n....
a) Alien was not giving constructive advice he was bleating like a baby about percentages and awful calls. The whole of the table took exception to his attitude because of his manner. Trying to justify this as 'constructively trying to help' after the event is a poor attempt to cover up a grumpy strop. As equinoxx said - he wouldn't let it drop for ages.
I have explained this above. That is because people kept saying it was the right call and I was trying to explain no it wasn't, and they wouldn't listen. Notice these people are all rather silent now, funny that. Not once did I mention "percentages" or "odds" or read some books etc. I simple said awful call, and then try to explain why. What would you have me say ? Ooh well I'm not too sure that was the best course of action. Awful call, explains it well. No subtlety, simple as.
b) Alien often comments on other peoples play. I remember going 'all in' UTG on KK early in one of the PL tourneys. I got no callers and showed my cards. Aliens comment was "Shit play". In other words this is typical of his commentary.
My commentary was correct. This was shit play. If someone has AA you are getting called of course. Do you expect someone with 10,10 or JJ even QQ to call ? Perhaps. Depends how highly you rate your opposition. Some munter could have AK suited or even AQ suited and think wow great and call you, and there's a 1 in 4 chance your tournament is over, with blinds at 10 and 20. Do you still think it is so smart ? I suppose it depends on your opposition. I for one would still not want to be called with AK or any ace for that matter for all my chips so early on.
e) Read my first posts on this thread. They are constructive and not argumentative at all. Then see how Alien turns it into an argument and you will get the flavour of what happened at the table. I haven't bothered with reading Jezza's post again - not because I might have misunderstood - but because there is no point arguing with Alien about anything. It would carry on for pages and pages and pages and I just don't see the point (Plus I would get the blame).
Ok there's a few key fact you have neglected to mention here gett1n. 1. You came and started boasting how you were so much better than me a the table I was playing at, even though you weren't even playing at this table. You were insulting to me then. Of course this does not get mentioned. 2. The reason I asked you to read Jezza's post again is because I think you have mis-interpreted what he said, and now as he has posted again and outlined what he meant, it turns out that yes you did. So I think it was fair enough of me to request you do that, as you were using one of his comments saying "for the record" to me. 3. You are right there is no point arguing with me. You ignore all my points, as do alot of people. You still can't acknowledge you misinterpreted jezza's post, were the one who started insulting me even though you weren't at the same table or the fact my comment about the play was correct.
c) The PL tourneys are supposed to be a friendly, banter filled tourney. It was not the place for tantrums - which is what was thrown.
I still regard it as friendly at the moment. Has it turned sour ? A tantrum was not thrown, a tantrum is of the sort - how the fcuk can you call that ? Oh my god worst player I've ever seen ? What the **** you doing on this table ? Man you must lose LOADS of cash playing like that etc. I simple said awful call, people said no it was right call. I tried to explain why I thought it was awful. Did I once call equinoxx a prick or insult him in anyway ? Nope. Which is typical of a "tantrum".
d) Aliens comment about people working from 9 to 5 for a living was another theme of the comments made at the table. This provoked a jokey response from me and a few others which Alien is now trying to use as me getting personal first :lol - I didn't even start that vein of conversation - I just happened to have a corking put down! :tongue2
No, I used you insulting me at the table you werent even playing on when I wasnt even talking to you as you getting personal first if you wanna do a "you started it" kinda thing. The reason I said this, someone said that most people here would have called. I maybe dilluding myself but I think there are some decent players here and I don't think most people would have called. I like to think a fair portion of them wouldn't have. If most people here would have called, that's the reason they work 9-5. It's not meant as an insult. They do something I couldn't. I couldn't work 9-5. This is digressing a bit though I think. It was merely a "if everyone would have called, that's why they can't play well" kinda statement.
f) When people want advice they will ask for it - they don't want it rammed down their throats. I often ask Jezza how he would have played a hand if he watches me because I respect his ability and the way he instructs. Alien might be a cracking player but his way of showing it isn't they way I want to hear it - and judging by everyones reaction to his manner at the table 95% of PL members seem to agree.
Unfortunately I haven't rammed anything down anyone's throat for quite a while. Everyone was telling me it was the right call, I was begging to differ and trying to explain why. Exactly how is this ramming down throats ? I don't care if 100% of PL agree or disagree with me. I'll say what I think until I'm unable to do so. Obviously any comments about play from me do not seem to be welcome so I said I shall refrain from such things and be careful what I post in this forum. People don't always ask when they want advice. Is this a don't speak unless spoken to kinda thing ? I was just commenting on some play.
Lastly - this isn't even my argument. I just posted (what I thought) to be a very reasonable answer on this thread and old Alien went off his head (AGAIN). Please don't try and make me the bad guy again because that old chestnut of me being to blame for every altercation is getting very tiring. Like I say - please go back to page one and see my first two posts and the smiley emoticons and you will see this thread turned into an argument because someone else was gunning for one - not me.
I'm not off my head, I'm just here standing my corner like anyone else. Please dispense with the ooooo don't blame me again attitude etc. It's not about blame. Perhaps I should not have named the thread argument hand :lol I see this as a discussion, not an argument. Some things are open to debate, does so and so paint nice pictures. Is so and so asthetically pleasing to the eye ? Was such a call/fold a good one or a bad one ?Whilst other things are black and white, good call/bad call whichever way you look at it. I believe this to be the latter and was jsut saying why, despite everyone telling me at the time, it was the opposite.
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