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Argument hand


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Ok blinds at are the minimum , ie 10 and 20 I think. Most people are around their starting stack of 1500 I limp in with AJ, there's no pre-flop raises. There's a few other callers. Flop comes AJx with 2 hearts. The pot is 120 I think. I bet 110 at this pot(perhaps should have bet more), the guy to my left raises to 220. All folds round to me. OK so I scratch my heard. I think he's either drawing hearts or has an ace. I think with a set I would be flat called. Rightly or wrongly this was my reasoning. I raise all in for another 1250 or so. He calls, his entire stack. He turns over AKo. Of course the river is a king and I lose. People may say yeah but lucky flop etc, remember I put 20 in to see the flop when I was behind, and my entire stack in when I was ahead. I would argue that to commit your entire stack to such a small pot when there has been 5 people or so in the pot hence a good chance someone is beating you is a poor call. In the reverse position I would not have called an all in. Upon me commenting it was a bad call the player made the statements "look who won the pot?" and "there was a good chance a king would come out as everyone else had folded" I would say it's a classic example of falling in love with your pretty hand and not being able to get off it. Some people maybe able to see why it was called, it's a hard hand to get off AK when there is an ace out. I still maintain it was a dodgy call. I could also make the point, had the person being paying attention to the poker forum he would know I don't play rag aces so it's unlikely I would have had that, the only hand he is beating. Had I been playing a suited ace I would only have raised all in with 2 pair anyway. Had I a hand like AQ there's I would be wary of a raise and I wouldnt be committing my whole stack to it. Anyway that's my 2p worth. I do believe the entire table except one person said the AK call was the right play.

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Re: Argument hand Is there actually an argument about this or just a discussion? Is it the 'look who won the pot' thing you are annoyed about?. If so I agree that is slightly annoying, If id have rivered the King I would have just said unlucky to the AJ player. And if I was Aliensyndm I would have probably just said nothing. If you are annoyed about the call Alien, I dont think you should be at all. Why would you not want someone to call you in this situation? Youd win about 80% of the time probably, which is a very nice position to be in.

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Re: Argument hand I'm not annoyed about the call, or about losing the pot. Believe me I have seen it all before. I commnented that it was an awful call. To which people said "no it was the right call", "who won the pot?", "there was a good chance a king would come out." Of course I want people to make those calls when playing me. It's just that in PL tournie I expected a little better than such stupid statements and down right refusal to believe they made a bad play even though it won them the pot. I'll wait on the "it was the right play" brigade to come and argue their point. Also I do a few things in PL tournie I never do when playing "properly", one is sometimes show winning hands. I'll never do that normally, why give anyone information on how you play, always keep them guessing. I will never comment on awful play from people either, I want them to play awfully, so why alert them to it ? Seeing as this is a PL tournie etc I wasn't taking it seriously hence I did comment on this hand. But judging by the ignorant replies next time I'll not bother and let them play bad poker.

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Re: Argument hand I would have folded the AK to such a strong raise (as all in is obviously). I wouldnt have liked it but I would have to think i was against something stronger than my hand. Also it wasnt likely a King would come out. Im not sure of the exact chances (things I plan to learn when I have time in the summer) but there was certainly no more than a 20% chance of it and it may nearly be as low as 10%. Im sure someone will know the exact chances on here!

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Re: Argument hand I would suggest under these circs you were bound to get called. I dont know who the caller was but do they play poker regularly. I would guess the answer is no. I would imagine in a bigger tourny Jezza would have folded. I probably would have folded aswell.

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Re: Argument hand Hmmm - I think you might have got the "who won the pot" comment based on the fact you made the initial comment of it being an "awful call". I don't think that the call was "awful" - I've seen a lot, lot worse. He has the top pair and the best kicker (unless the kicker is paired on the flop as yours was). He has to figure you for AJ or a SET to be behind. He figured that you didn't have one of these hands (wrongly) and that you were behind or drawing to the flush. So he called. Not the best call I've seen, but no where near the worst. It's very early in the tourney and he might be thinking that he'll try to double up rather than sit there all night to end up 4th and not in the money. Some people play a little looser early in a tourney.... Personally Alien, I find people who bang on about peoples 'shiitty' play rather tiresome. Maybe you should change your strapline to Hellmuth Punter? :tongue2

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Re: Argument hand :lol :lol Alien my post wasn't a moan at all. Just a post to say how I went out that's all. I didn't critisise anyones play or dish out any 'advice'. Every time I lose in the PL tourney everyone will tell you that, bad beat or not, I am extremely well mannered and good natured about it. In fact I'll have you know that I'm considered a Gentleman when I play live games because of the way I take my beats. (A croupier told me that I had this reputation by the way). :D I only walked in on the back of your argument last night Alien but I thought you were going over the top considering it was a 'friendly'. You've dished out unwanted advice to me before now as well so I know this is typical of your 'style'. Seeing as you haven't been playing the game that long you sure like to tell everyone how to play! I'll leave you to argue with yourself about poker for a bit. :lol

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Re: Argument hand Have to agree with Gett1n about this. Whats the point of moaning about a badbeat or someones bad play. It happens. Remember last week when I went all in with trip 10's on the final table. Some rookie called with pocket 5's. He got a 5 on the turn to make full house and knock me out. He should never have called but the fact is I wanted him to win the chips. I stood up walked away, had a fag then went home. Its life.

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Re: Argument hand I've been playing cards on and off for years actually. Gett1n you are very keen on telling me what I own and what I have been doing and what I have done considering you actually know very little about me. I haven't played poker seriously for that long. But long enough to know. You talk yourself up very much but judging by your depresser ramblings in GC you still aren't very happy with yourself, anwyay.... Well looks like I am in the wrong forum, I thought the idea of this forum was to discuss such things etc, so everyone improves their play and gets better and so on. I see now mentioning bad plays are obviously frowned upon and shouldn't be done. Hmm so exactly how is anyone supposed to learn ? Also you seem to forget, not once did I moan about the bad beat , I pointed out the bad play. I didn't say "oh my god can't believe you won that" etc or anything to the like, I said it was an awful call, nothing more. To which I got an onslaught of munter like retorts. Stafford I don't need lessons in how to take a bad beat, I've had them a million times, alot worse than that one. People miss my point though. I'll refer you to one of my posts in another thread. The people that really know what they are doing are always willing to learn and always wanting to improve, as am I. If you see me do something which you think is a bad play, I wanna know about it ! But then we have the arrogant people who say no it was the right play, refuse to accept they have done anything wrong, and start criticising me for moaning about a bad beat(even though I havent done this) when I thought the whole idea of this was for some friendly play and to help everyone improve their game. I wanna improve my game too. That's why I am here. If you are just here to make munter calls and not to try and learn fine, I shall not comment on any plays I see. There seems to be a distinct lack of "it was the right play" brigade on here now, I wonder why.

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Re: Argument hand I would have thought you were up against A10 or AQ also alien....the lack of preflop raises would have severely discounted the chance of AK in my mind (even tho that was the case). If there had been no flush draw I would have flat called and gone for the check-raise on the turn but seeing as there was one then moving in was pretty much the best play I can see here. You could have been up against a set yes but the majority of players would have flat called you with a set on the flop - I could have easily gone broke with the AJ here if I was against a set tbh. As for the AK well I would probably just have called you down if I had had that. The problem for me is the connected card on the board syndrom. AJx just makes it likely someone has two pair with AJ.....just as if you hold AJ and the flop comes Jxxx - you bet someone calls and the turn is a 10 - TWO PAIR WARNING!!!. However it takes a lot of experience and judgement to be able to identify when you are beat here with the AK as alien could have been holding AQ - the rereraise from alien all in tho has to be respected (infact always be very wary if someone rereraises you all in as believe me 19/20 you are up against something v good). However AK with top pair always looks juicy and I can forgive someone from going broke with it here. Basically alien I think you played it spot on and just got unlucky.... The chance of the AK winning on the flop was 14.9% btw. Jez

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Re: Argument hand That is why the majority of people in here work 9-5 for money , staff. Yes jezza exactly as I said, I would have expected a set to call and been slightly more wary of just a flat call. A raise led me to believe I am up against someone drawing hearts or another ace, the latter which I am beating. The former which I am gonna give sh!t odds for drawing with my raise. Oh of course I got unlucky, you know I know that. But Im getting crucified for pointing out what I see as a bad play. Not cos I lost the pot, cos I thought the idea was to help people improve. Similarly I want people to help my play by pointing out errors I make. C'mon people, come and tell me it was the right call. Where are you all now ? Silence from them all of a sudden. It's for such a small pot, you can still easily get off the hand having only put 230 chips into that pot. I for one would have folded AK against an all in raise. Oh and jez, the chances of AK winning are slightly different to the chances of a king coming up ;)

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Re: Argument hand Alien I respect what you say. At the end of the day I am not a good poker player. I play for fun and not too win money really. If i do win I am happy if I lose it doesnt really bother me. All i am saying I would have called rightly or wrongly. I dont know Ill just shut up now and concentrate on the game I am playing I have listened to all argument and next time someone raises all in like that against me I will consider my move. Perhaps I will learn from it and when i win WSOP i will think of you. Perhaps even give you a little of my winnings lol.

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Re: Argument hand Fair enough staff. I must admit to finding one aspect of gambling and the like strange though - People will look round the shop for can of beans that in 2p cheaper. They will check if they can get a better deal by a 10er on a computer in another shop. They will go to all sorts of lengths to make sure they get the best deal and don't get ripped off. Yet they are quite happy to throw their money away on things like poker and other forms of gambling knowing little about how or why they lose. That's not a dig at you saying you always lose btw, but just a point I find strange somehow. Also seein as this is a poker forum the idea was to learn remember ? I was only trying to help, yet been shot down for being a cnut.

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Re: Argument hand Alien, So you're not going to be giving 'advice' at the table any more? Good. :ok What you fail to realise is that if people want advice they will ask for it Alien (and probably not from you). Your manners on the table are abrasive and your commentary argumentative. You were not being conciliatory in your tone in the slightest. You did 'a Hellmuth' and said it was an 'awful call' - it wasn't awful at all. He had top pair and a King kicker. It wasn't a great call - but 'awful' no. If you read Jezza's post again you will see that he said he might have called with the AK too (try not to cherry pick just the bits you WANT to acknowledge in other peoples replies.) As for

You talk yourself up very much but judging by your depresser ramblings in GC you still aren't very happy with yourself, anwyay....
I thought this was childish and personal. No need for that Ken as I was debating poker with you and stating that you give advice at the table which is often unwanted. I fail to see how you justify making a general disparaging remark about me. Shame on you.
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Re: Argument hand It was me who Alien is having a pissy fit over. I have been playing poker for a few months and the fact is I judged from the reaction of the other people on the table that there were still high cards around and figured I would see what happend with the Turn. We are all gamblers here so I don't see what the big fuss is of me meeting your raise. You may have been trying a bluff for all I knew! I will stand by what I did. The bottom line is whether my call was a good one or a bad one you must expect anything at a poker table. It is poker after all, it is all about risk. You took a risk and so did I. I don't seem to like your attitude about people working too. Why does that have anything to do with this argument? You don't know what some of these people do for a living so it shouldn't be brought in to this argument. And the bottom line is this - if people do make a living from poker then they wouldn't be playing the PL tourneys with the goal of feeding their families with the prize. Wat the PL tourneys are is a fun night to chill with other users on the boaard. Hey Alien: Don't hate the player, hate the game!

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Re: Argument hand

It was me who Alien is having a pissy fit over. I have been playing poker for a few months and the fact is I judged from the reaction of the other people on the table that there were still high cards around and figured I would see what happend with the Turn. We are all gamblers here so I don't see what the big fuss is of me meeting your raise. You may have been trying a bluff for all I knew! I will stand by what I did. The bottom line is whether my call was a good one or a bad one you must expect anything at a poker table. It is poker after all, it is all about risk. You took a risk and so did I. I don't seem to like your attitude about people working too. Why does that have anything to do with this argument? You don't know what some of these people do for a living so it shouldn't be brought in to this argument. And the bottom line is this - if people do make a living from poker then they wouldn't be playing the PL tourneys with the goal of feeding their families with the prize. Wat the PL tourneys are is a fun night to chill with other users on the boaard. Hey Alien: Don't hate the player, hate the game!
:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap Well said
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Re: Argument hand Gett1n you made plenty such remarks about me at the poker table last night, which you have convienently failed to mention.Your knowledge of what I do and own is also bordering on stalkerish, or perhaps it is just that you don't actually know. I set myself high standards, to me that's an awful call. Perhaps to you it isn't. Jezza whilst a good player is not the last word on poker and just cos he says something doesn't make it correct anyway. I am not cherry picking. He said he could forgive someone for going broke with it there, highly different to saying he might have called as well, so why don't you re-read his post ? Call it whichever way you want gett1n, you basically came on and said I am so well mannered, I take bad beats so well, whereas you don't, you are a dick etc , rather personal as well. Yet of course still missing the fact I wasn't moaning about the bad beat. You are correct I won't be commenting from now on, I will keep my posting in this forum to a minimum now as I won't be commenting on anyone's play. Don't worry though I'm not gonna throw my toys and my pram and say I'm not posting anymore etc boo hoo de hoo :\ That would be silly now wouldn't it ?

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Re: Argument hand

He said he could forgive someone for going broke with it there, highly different to saying he might have called as well, so why don't you re-read his post ?
As for the AK well I would probably just have called you down if I had had that.
Just for the record.
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Re: Argument hand Equinoxx I'm not having a pissy fit over any player or anything. I'm going to keep my mouth shut from now on. People here obviously find advice threatning. I said 2 words, awful call and have been criticised for saying them ever since. The statements such as "it was the right call", "there was a good chance a king would come up" and "who won the pot?" are all conviently ignored. All the people claiming it was the right play are suddenly very silent. I may also add at one point in the tournament, I cant remember who it was, it may have been equinoxx again I cant really remember. Someone had called for 100 chips I think it was, I go all in to 700, was just me and him left. He then calls my 700 and flips over K6. Before the flop even hits I say that's an awful call. The cards come out and indeed I won that pot. But everyone appears to have forgotten about that one of course.:zzz

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Re: Argument hand

Originally Posted by aliensyndm He said he could forgive someone for going broke with it there, highly different to saying he might have called as well, so why don't you re-read his post ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezza As for the AK well I would probably just have called you down if I had had that.
Just for the record. yes gett1m, as I said i would be alot more wary of a flat call than a raise. Hence my play then may have been different. What is your point ?
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