2013 Epsom Derby

[Aidymac]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Wonder if Mr Burke backed the 2nd home to lose again, he's good at that. It was a piss poor race, no Cecil or Stoute, Gosdon Hannon etc etc.

Yes Jim, Burke would prefer to lay his horse for a few quid instead of winning the derby and increasing the horse's worth by millions.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Hope Primevils alright, someone get down to Beechy Head and have a search around. I thought I'd had a bad weeks punting, if his confidence in these threads are anything to go by his b*llocks must have been well and truly done. Bring on Royal Ascot.

[Aidymac]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Hope Primevils alright, someone get down to Beechy Head and have a search around. I thought I'd had a bad weeks punting, if his confidence in these threads are anything to go by his b*llocks must have been well and truly done. Bring on Royal Ascot.

What about the nutter that layed Duke Of Firenze in-running? £33 @ 1000 :unsure

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

What about the nutter that layed Duke Of Firenze in-running? £33 @ 1000 :unsure

Christ, I know it's easy to say with hindsight but you do see them fly down that hill and make up a huge amount of late ground at times, brave man to lay the max there. The second horse should have been layed at about 10,000 Whoever was laying that in running would have had a huge scare

[Trotter]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

I dont really understand it either. I mean, if you do really well in group races, top class stuff and back your opinion in this sort of stuff, then fair enough. I wouldnt have a bet just for the sake of it, I never lay any money down on races like the Derby, National, Gold Cup etc

My discipline went out of the window...........I had my maximum bets on the Oaks and the Derby (both lost) Given that I'm normally so careful as to when i bet I'm feeling as though I've let myself down a bit and need to get a grip again and definitely not to go chasing those losses !

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Was surprised to see DA pull like that, for all I didn't want to be taking the odds over the extra half mile. Seemed quite a relaxed type and Bolger spoke about that before the race but he never seemed totally confident about the horse's chances. We'll never get to see whether he could one day give himself half a chance at the trip but fingers crossed he can get back on track down in trip. Winner did it well. I'm never all that keen on Chester form for the Derby but maybe I should take more note of it after this and it worked out really well a couple of years ago when Nathaniel was beaten by Treasure Beach too. Chopin settled and travelled really well. I thought he was going to be bang there when they straightened but couldn't find much more than the one pace. Should get a good clash between the winner, Galileo Rock and Libertarian at Doncaster should they all get there. The latter at 8s makes appeal. Frustrated to have backed him at Sandown on his second start but missed his maiden win, the Dante and now today when a very good 2nd!

[dannn17]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Was such a poor Derby, lacked depth and class apart from Dawn Approach. Don't think the winner ROTR is anything special really and I'm Kingsbarns or Telescope would of won if they had lined up.

[The Saint]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Was such a poor Derby' date=' lacked depth and class apart from Dawn Approach. Don't think the winner ROTR is anything special really and I'm Kingsbarns or Telescope would of won if they had lined up.[/quote'] Telescope the Maiden winner?!?! You might be right but I don't think you can be sure of that at this stage tbh. I think the form is probably much of a muchness this year but I'd be surprised if these weren't the best around. There already better than last years crop of 3yos by a mile imho. Chester trial and York trial winners plus the 2,000 gns winner plus Battle of Marengo who won the same trial that all the AOB Big Guns have taken in over the years. Oh - and challengers from Germany and France too. I know we have been spoiled with some real super stars recently but I'm not sure the race lacked class exactly. Who would you like to have seen line up that wsn't there? I'll give you Magician. Just seems a standard Derby in a standard year to me - they happen most of the time.

[keithn]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby You were correct in your prediction on the AOB team. I see AOB was quoted in the Sun on Sunday as saying "Nobody set an artificial pace to get the favorite beaten". While I agree all horses from a stable that merit running or even those that an owner enters should be able to take their chance I'm not certain its good for racing in general to have these mob entries. It was a very muddling race and if trainers cannot work out their best horse or at least narrow it down to 2 horses that says something about trainers in general. The Derby is the most prestigious race in the world racing calendar and should always reflect that.

[cpo]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I don't think it was the worst Derby I have ever seen. Yes there were a few horses missing but the trial winners came to the fore in the end. Obviously the massive disappointment was Dawn Approach but the occasion clearly got the better of him yesterday. I don't think it was purely down to the extreme lack of pace. Manning has already said he was uncontrollable. You just knew when watching it, that after a couple of furlongs he had no chance whatsoever. Whether he would have stayed or not, we will never know but I doubt we will ever see him at that trip again. I backed the winner and I also had a little on Festive Cheer so I was pleased with the result. Once ROTW got going I didn't for one second think he wasn't going to win. He did slightly hamper Ocovango and he may have got much closer without a trouble passage. I don't think Libertarian can be underestimated anymore... he is clearly a serious horse and will be a huge threat on a more conventional track. He took an age to get balanced but absolutely flew home once he did. The other one I would take out of the race is Mars. He probably had the worst run out of everyone and still managed to finish close up. As for Duke of Firenze...WOW! Is that right that someone laid him for £33 at 1000... absolutely crazy and greedy! The amount of times you see horses absolutely fly in the final furlong over 5f at Epsom.

[BillyHills]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Hope Primevils alright, someone get down to Beechy Head and have a search around. I thought I'd had a bad weeks punting, if his confidence in these threads are anything to go by his b*llocks must have been well and truly done. Bring on Royal Ascot.

I was thinking that too, he never offered his opinion in the Oaks thread either. No doubt he will be back with the best bet at Royal Ascot he has ever seen, gotta love his confidence though!

[who?me?]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Was such a poor Derby' date=' lacked depth and class apart from Dawn Approach. Don't think the winner ROTR is anything special really and I'm Kingsbarns or Telescope would of won if they had lined up.[/quote'] Sorry but can't agree with you as regards Kingsbarns and Telescope. Until we see Kingsbarns on the track this year, we don't know for sure that he has trained on and the talk is now of him having an autumn campaign. I feel Telescope has been over-hyped because of who the owners are - having only won a Class 4 maiden, he still has a lot to prove so far as I'm concerned. Had my money on Ruler of the World - I thought he would get the trip as he had won over the distance in the Chester Vase even though that was only a 4 runner race. Was sorry to see Dawn Approach not settle and pull the way he did - hope he can get back to winning ways this year & not just because he's in my TTF!

[Stakes n chips]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

You were correct in your prediction on the AOB team. I see AOB was quoted in the Sun on Sunday as saying "Nobody set an artificial pace to get the favorite beaten". While I agree all horses from a stable that merit running or even those that an owner enters should be able to take their chance I'm not certain its good for racing in general to have these mob entries. It was a very muddling race and if trainers cannot work out their best horse or at least narrow it down to 2 horses that says something about trainers in general. The Derby is the most prestigious race in the world racing calendar and should always reflect that.

I agree with keithn's points about trainers being limited to one or two runners. Watching the race this year reminded me a bit of those indoor track cycling races - the ones where they almost stop at some points before sprinting the final lap or two. Rather boring to watch apart from the last 30 secs. Roll on the next jumps season i say :)

[The Saint]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

I agree with keithn's points about trainers being limited to one or two runners. Watching the race this year reminded me a bit of those indoor track cycling races - the ones where they almost stop at some points before sprinting the final lap or two. Rather boring to watch apart from the last 30 secs. Roll on the next jumps season i say :)

Definatly NO to the jumps season! :lol I don't know if this is fair but when the Olympics come about you'll often find that some of the best 8 in the World in say - the 100m, aren't even allowed to compete because they are not in the top 3 in their country which never seems fair or satisfactory to me. The problem as far as the middle distance horses go is that the best crop of stalions are all linked to AOB / Collmore etc so it's inevitable that they produce the best crop of middle distance horses at the moment. I then don't think that thay have a clue who their best horse is because they are unlikely to 'bust' them at home finding out so it's only fair to let them all run imho. I agree that complete no-hopers should be banished immediatly and that should be based on being within so many lbs of the top rated horse in the race or better still, having to reach a certain rating before being able to compete in a certain grade of race. This also stops unexposed AOBs turning up in all the trials and me wanting to 'lay' them before they turn out to be the best horse in the race by a country mile!! It would mean that horses had to trial in public as opposed to at home and the farce that many of the 'trials' have become would be addressed immediatly too.

[Stakes n chips]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Thats a very good point Saint regarding the stallion situation at Coolmore, one which i didnt fully appreciate until you made your post. Even still, i would expect AOB to have had a fairly good idea that a slow gallop would best suit atleast one or two of his runners. Last year i think he sent Camelot home perfectly following a decent paced even type of gallop. Betting aside, overall i felt the Oaks day was a better watch in terms of racing than Derby Day this year although the biggest single highlight for me was St Nicholas Abbey showing his class yet again.

[The Saint]

Thats a very good point Saint regarding the stallion situation at Coolmore, one which i didnt fully appreciate until you made your post. Even still, i would expect AOB to have had a fairly good idea that a slow gallop would best suit atleast one or two of his runners. Last year i think he sent Camelot home perfectly following a decent paced even type of gallop. Betting aside, overall i felt the Oaks day was a better watch in terms of racing than Derby Day this year although the biggest single highlight for me was St Nicholas Abbey showing his class yet again.

One of those things that well never kno m8 because u can't run the same race 2 or 3 times! Ironically, the winner was the only horse with proven form over the distance b4 the race so mayb he'd have been suited by a stronger gallop? I don't think we can ever kno for sure but there's the beauty of horse racing! I'd also agree that on the whole, Fridays card was better than Saturdays... All good though - just a horrible gap between now and Royal Ascot! :(

[whoneedsrio]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby As I've said before it's a game of opinions this, however I sometimes wonder what people want. This time last year the moan was that the Derby was boring because it was not competitive having been won by the odds on Camelot. This year we get a fascinating race with the Guineas winner & most of the main trial winners & still it's a load of bellyaching. How anybody can decide it's a bad Derby at this stage I don't know, three months down the line maybe if nothings won anything but not now. As for St Nicholas Abbey showing his class, yes he did but what did he beat? Dunaden who he's beaten before. Joshua Tree who's decent but not top class & two handicappers. A highlight, not to these eyes. Roll on the jumps? What so we can see Sprinter Sacre scaring everything off before Cheltenham in March. All the best hurdlers & 3m+ chasers avoiding each other till Cheltenham in March. Can't wait:eyes Rio.

[scotty657]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Thats a very good point Saint regarding the stallion situation at Coolmore, one which i didnt fully appreciate until you made your post. Even still, i would expect AOB to have had a fairly good idea that a slow gallop would best suit atleast one or two of his runners. Last year i think he sent Camelot home perfectly following a decent paced even type of gallop. Betting aside, overall i felt the Oaks day was a better watch in terms of racing than Derby Day this year although the biggest single highlight for me was St Nicholas Abbey showing his class yet again.

Love that horse. Backed him every race he's ran. By the way did anyone else notice Joseph say before the race he would have preferred to be on St. Nic in the Derby?

[arsenalpunter]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Perhaps it wasn't the greatest Derby field but I still thought it was a great race, I backed Libertarian each way and thought I was going to be ripping up my slip turning for home but the way he stayed on towards the finish, I think he could be hard to beat if going for The St Leger, or possibly even The Arc? Regarding Dawn Approach, after his performance does anyone still think that Frankel would of won a Derby, had Sir Henry sent him down that route?

[who?me?]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

The problem as far as the middle distance horses go is that the best crop of stalions are all linked to AOB / Collmore etc so it's inevitable that they produce the best crop of middle distance horses at the moment.

Coolmore's most important sire of course is Galileo - not only the sire of Frankel and New Approach, he is the sire of Ruler of the World (Derby winner), grand-sire of Libertarian (Derby 2nd), sire of Galileo Rock (Derby 3rd), sire of Battle of Marengo (Derby 4th), sire of Kingsbarns (Racing Post Trophy winner), grand-sire of Dawn Approach, grand-sire of Talent (Oaks winner) etc etc. Just in Ireland they also have established stallions like Duke of Marmalade, Footstepsinthesand, Holy Roman Emperor, Rock of Gibraltar plus the new kids on the block such as Canford Cliffs, Excelebration, Pour Moi etc On the NH side they have 2 of my favourite stallions - Flemensfirth and Oscar. Not surprising that AOB has good horses to train really and that Coolmore is what it is.

[erhaab1965]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

I agree that complete no-hopers should be banished immediatly and that should be based on being within so many lbs of the top rated horse in the race or better still, having to reach a certain rating before being able to compete in a certain grade of race. This also stops unexposed AOBs turning up in all the trials and me wanting to 'lay' them before they turn out to be the best horse in the race by a country mile!! It would mean that horses had to trial in public as opposed to at home and the farce that many of the 'trials' have become would be addressed immediatly too.

I don't have a solution, but surely you can't prevent horses running who have not reached a certain level. Saeed Bin Suroor trained Lammtarra to win the Derby after one solitary run the year before when trained by A Scott. I think it was the year later that top jockey Michael Hills won the Derby on Shaamit having only won a maiden. Also we could have been denied the chance of seeing a woman jockey potentially winning the race, didn't David Nicholls and Gr 1 winning lady rider A Greaves have a horse called Portuguese Lil about 8 years ago? The less said about Noddies Way the better.

[The Saint]

Stuff em!! My solution looks out for the average punter who's not privy to inside info! It's only a matter of time b4 a 200/1 shot brings down Sprinter Sacre or the like.... Obviously it'll never happen - the solution I mean.... Remember Carvill Gills Gold Cup tho??

[The Saint]

Hill!! F***s sake!! Ha ha!

[Stakes n chips]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

As I've said before it's a game of opinions this, however I sometimes wonder what people want. This time last year the moan was that the Derby was boring because it was not competitive having been won by the odds on Camelot. This year we get a fascinating race with the Guineas winner & most of the main trial winners & still it's a load of bellyaching. How anybody can decide it's a bad Derby at this stage I don't know, three months down the line maybe if nothings won anything but not now. As for St Nicholas Abbey showing his class, yes he did but what did he beat? Dunaden who he's beaten before. Joshua Tree who's decent but not top class & two handicappers. A highlight, not to these eyes. Roll on the jumps? What so we can see Sprinter Sacre scaring everything off before Cheltenham in March. All the best hurdlers & 3m+ chasers avoiding each other till Cheltenham in March. Can't wait:eyes Rio.

St Nicholas Abbey ran the same course and distance on the same day 6 seconds faster than the derby field. Thats one good reason that compounds why i felt it wasnt such a great race to watch. Snail racing can be highly competitve too - but it doesnt, in my opinion, make for very good viewing!

[erhaab1965]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Hill!! F***s sake!! Ha ha!

I am now limited to the opportunities I can crow bar that into my posts. I bet you remember the local Erhaab's ( nutters) from your neck of the woods talking about the mighty Nortons Coin.

[whoneedsrio]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

St Nicholas Abbey ran the same course and distance on the same day 6 seconds faster than the derby field. Thats one good reason that compounds why i felt it wasnt such a great race to watch. Snail racing can be highly competitve too - but it doesnt, in my opinion, make for very good viewing!

According to the Racing Post results the time for The Coronation Cup was 2mins 37.76secs. The Derby time was 2mins 39.06secs, which is a difference of 1.3secs, where do you get 6 seconds from? Rio.

[Stakes n chips]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I felt sure the commentator on c4 said it (i havent double checked though) just after the race finished?? if i heard wrong then i do apologise. Watching the derby to me they seemed to go at a crawl for a large part of the race .......or was that just me? (edit... i just read Aidymac's post on a different thread - im glad it wasnt just me who felt the derby gallop was a pretty slow pace ).

[Jimmy2shoes]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Yes Jim' date=' Burke would prefer to lay his horse for a few quid instead of winning the derby and increasing the horse's worth by millions.[/quote'] I was being cheeky and very sarcastic, sometimes i get funny moods.

[whoneedsrio]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I was at Doncaster & watched it on the big screen so what was said on C4 after the race I have no idea. I wouldn't disagree that the first half of the race was slowly run, however that is not unusual in Britain in races at a mile+ & it tends to happen even more in France. What would be interesting would be a time comparison of the last half mile of both races where I suspect that the Derby would be the quicker. I'm also wondering what the time test column makes of in the Racing & Football Outlook, I shall have a look tomorrow. Rio.

[whoneedsrio]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby So what does Time Test in the RFO make of the weekend events? The Headline is... Rare pace in France trumps our Derby number It seems the gallop for the Prix du Jockey Club was fair from the off which meant the winner Intello (73) produced the best middle distance figure of the season by a 3yo. I should point out that the numbers produced by Time Test would line up to the old scale of 0-100 which went out donkeys years ago & I wish they'd alter it to use the 0-140 in use now. They then go on to say.. "It was clear from an early stage that the Derby was unlikely to produce a smart figure, the middle section of the race appeared to be particularly slow & the final time of 2m39.06s confirmed this was a below par renewal from a time perspective. In what was a messy affair Ruler of the World (51) coped best, showing a good turn of foot to put the race to bed while others floundered when the screw was turned" So what of the Coronation Cup? "The Coronation Cup was slightly better with St Nicholas Abbey (64) covering the same trip in 2m37.76s, but this five runner affair was slowly run in the early stages & this isn't a particularly strong rating for the grade of race" So it would seem that neither race set the world on fire from a time perspective. What does that mean? Not a lot to me, a good horse can win a race in a slow time, a bad horse can't win a race in a fast time. The proof of the pudding is what comes after, just over a month ago the win of Dawn Approach looked exceptional in the 2000 Guineas but whats run since has done little for the form. Dawn Approach himself probably has a valid excuse but... Van Der Neer, 3rd at Newmarket, 8th of 10 in the Irish 2000. Mars, 6th at Newmarket, 6th in the Derby. Don't Bother Me, 8th at Newmarket, last of four in the Derrinstown. Leitir Mor, 9th at Newmarket, 8th of 16 in a Curragh Group3. George Vancouver, 10th at Newmarket, 7th of 10 in the Irish 2000. Correspondent, 11th at Newmarket, 6th of 10 in a Newmarket Listed race. Kyllachy Rise 13th & last at Newmaket, 3rd at 8/13 in a class4 York maiden. Still time of course but it doesn't look good so far does it? We shall see. Rio.