2013 Epsom Derby

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby MARS out to over 100/1 on Betfair.................................................. Ruler of the World out to 20/1........................................................... Indian Chief getting shaved in the last 24 hours,,,,25/1 now...................

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Nothing in the DANTE to worry about.................................. Dawn Approach now 5/4....Cast iron now for me. One Foot note....Kieron Fallon pre race "Greatwood has a great chance, in a very open Derby", Is that the pitmans derby kieron? One sad note.....The banned trainer Karl Burke, getting airtime on CH4....Cheats in racing,,,carrying on like nothing happened....what next Miles Rodgers making an appearance?

[cpo]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby The home challenge in the Derby is fast becoming a joke. If Aiden O'Brien wasn't around the Derby would be utter rubbish. He currently has 6 of the top 11 in the betting, which would have been much more had all his horses been fit. Nobody can live with them and why the hell can't Godolphin produce more Derby contenders (Dawn Approach doesn't count!)

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

The home challenge in the Derby is fast becoming a joke. If Aiden O'Brien wasn't around the Derby would be utter rubbish. He currently has 6 of the top 11 in the betting' date=' which would have been much more had all his horses been fit. Nobody can live with them and why the hell can't Godolphin produce more Derby contenders (Dawn Approach doesn't count!)[/quote'] This is because Coolmore and Dubai, were not good neighbours, thru the 90's and 00's... They dont have a 12-14f G1 sire that consistantly produces results..how they would love that... Just one of the many spats they had,,,below.. After the QE2 2006 race. Dettori went to the stewards, the arbiters of fair play, and claimed that Seamus Heffernan, who was riding Ballydoyle's second-string horse, Ivan Denisovich, had deliberately impeded his mount — apparently to help George Washington win. The stewards, to the surprise of many in the racing world, backed Dettori and found Heffernan guilty of "team tactics". They suspended him from riding for 14 days. Heffernan is appealing against the ruling. But that was not the end of the matter. Aidan O'Brien, the master of Ballydoyle and normally the most reticent of trainers, was clearly incensed that Mr Magnier's operation had been accused of cheating. On Sunday, he rounded on Dettori. "Frankie threw the toys out of the pram like a spoilt child," he said. Mr O'Brien also let slip that he had been told that Dettori was no longer available to ride for Coolmore: usually, jockeys are free to ride for anyone else, if their own stable does not have a runner in a race. Indeed, in September last year, Dettori rode Scorpion — trained by Mr O'Brien and bred by Coolmore — in the St Leger, one of the five "Classic" races of the British season, when its stable jockey was unavailable. Scorpion won and Dettori celebrated enthusiastically. However, Sheikh Mohammed was less than delighted to see his retained jockey so joyous in Coolmore's navy-blue colours — rather than Godolphin's royal-blue silks — and there were repercussions. "After Frankie won the St Leger for us on Scorpion last year, we tried to book him for another horse of ours," said Mr O'Brien, last weekend. "We were told that Frankie was not allowed to ride for us any more. What is anyone to make of that?" Most in the racing world interpret the disclosure as a sign of the increasingly acrimonious relationship between racing's two superpowers. But how has it come to this? Why are Sheikh Mohammed and Mr Magnier, both renowned for their generosity and sense of fair play, at loggerheads? Insiders say that the main battle between the rival sides has been fought not on the racetrack but off it. Both are competing for the title of the world's most successful breeder, which brings with it far greater riches than the millions of pounds that can be won in big-race prize money. A single successful stallion can make tens of millions of pounds a year for its owner after it has retired. And there is no doubt that the most successful breeding operation today is run by Coolmore, whose worldwide achievements dwarf those of Sheikh Mohammed's Darley Stud. Last year, Sheikh Mohammed decreed that Godolphin would no longer breed with or buy progeny from Coolmore stallions — apparently in retaliation for the lack of support from Coolmore, who rarely bought horses from Sheikh Mohammed's stud. Friction has also been caused by Coolmore's reluctance to participate in the Dubai World Cup, which Sheikh Mohammed has promoted vigorously for the past decade. Godolphin wants Mr Magnier and his horses to go to the oil-rich emirate, but the Irish have concluded that the event does not fit into their horses' training schedule. Spokesmen for Coolmore and Godolphin refused to comment on the rivalry this weekend. But Mr Magnier and Sheikh Mohammed are two forceful characters, who are used to getting their own way. At present, according to one racing insider, there is "a complete stand-off between them", the former is the shy son of a cattle breeder and a self-made, thoughtful, family-oriented man, the latter a more impulsive statesman, sportsman and poet, born into one of the world's richest families. Mr Magnier is one of the few men to have successfully stood up to Sir Alex Ferguson, the formidable Manchester United boss, when they had a bitter dispute, three years ago, over the stud rights to a top horse, Rock of Gibraltar. According to a senior racing figure: "This dispute is essentially about two operations trying to build bloodstock empires. The Godolphin operation has spent huge amounts of money, has put Dubai on the racing map, has won lots of races but it has not built a comparable breeding operation [to Coolmore], almost, given its resources, to a laughable extent. By not buying Coolmore's progeny, Godolphin is cutting off its nose to spite its face." A source close to Sheikh Mohammed's bloodstock operations said: "I think the Sheikh feels there has been a significant transfer of resources from the Maktoum family to Tipperary but that there has been zero reciprocation. With the traffic being only one way, the Sheikh felt he was being taken for a ride."

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Telescope by all accounts impressive this morning. Goes for a racecourse gallop at Lingfield in the week if he comes out of it fine. Stop tempting me!

[mowgli77]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Telescope by all accounts impressive this morning. Goes for a racecourse gallop at Lingfield in the week if he comes out of it fine. Stop tempting me!

Racecourse gallop at Epsom isn't there? They do some breakfast with the stars thing each year don't they? It would be interesting to see how he handles the camber of Epsom, same applies for Dawn Approach. The TV cameras and photos don't really show just how slanted the camber is and I was shocked when we went there for the PL race day.

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I'll say it now, I have Dawn Approach so far ahead of this very average lot it will take a lightning bolt to stop him. Telescope will need just that to see him, racecourse gallop.......my a!!e.. And if you did not have your fill of AOB last Saturday...talking horses up... DA wins this Derby....end of....Distance of at least 5 will be second. Classic winners have little problem with Epsom......FACT. This is my last on this subject.

[BillyHills]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

This is my last on this subject.

Any early prices on this :lol

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Racecourse gallop at Epsom isn't there? They do some breakfast with the stars thing each year don't they? It would be interesting to see how he handles the camber of Epsom' date=' same applies for Dawn Approach. The TV cameras and photos don't really show just how slanted the camber is and I was shocked when we went there for the PL race day.[/quote'] No idea...just what was said yesterday.

[mowgli77]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

No idea...just what was said yesterday.

Telescope heads to Lingfield like you mentioned and will work at 1pm tomorrow. If they had the option to go for a gallop at Epsom I don't understand why they wouldn't go for that instead.

[Trotter]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Telescope heads to Lingfield like you mentioned and will work at 1pm tomorrow. If they had the option to go for a gallop at Epsom I don't understand why they wouldn't go for that instead.

One day last week Jason Weaver said on ATR that the word on the street in Newmarket was that Telescope was a highly strung type and he was difficult to get into a horse box The very next day it was announced that he was missing the Dante because of a minor accident getting into a horse box ! So I'm guessing that if he's highly strung they'll want to avoid the hullaballoo of 'Breakfast with the Champions' and take him to Lingers where it'll be quiet............... Of course.......that's not going to help when it comes to Derby Day

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Telescope heads to Lingfield like you mentioned and will work at 1pm tomorrow. If they had the option to go for a gallop at Epsom I don't understand why they wouldn't go for that instead.

If it is correct about being high strung, many horses lose the race before entering a box to travel. He may be one of them. But Derby Day hustle n bustle will only make things worse. Cant have a horse that is this way, that's why they geld them.

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby German G3 Winner CHOPIN supplemented for the Derby. Connections feel that apart from DA it's wide open, and well worth the investment. only have to finish 4th to see a nice profit. 14/1 Spencer will ride, however they will come over a day or two early to get him settled.

[Binchy]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby All this information seems to be culminating in the Stoute team be very confident about Telescope's chances. Taking the horse to Lingfield rather than Epsom suggests to me he is not worried about the track and would he seriously put all the work in to get Telescope ready for the Derby if he thought the horse was going to ruin his chances before even getting to the track? It goes without saying that he thinks highly of the horse as I'm sure he would have been withdrawn before now if he didn't. For what its worth I think Dawn Approach will win but I can't back it at that price, so using the trends I think I might have an each-way bet on an Ocovango @ around 7/1, and use the three of them in a trifecta.

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I think they think highly of him as well but by all accounts was far from a Derby winner at Lingfield today. All I'm seeing is people wanting their money paid out already on Dawn Approach and as much as I love the horse and think it's possible he'll just outclass them, I certainly wouldn't be as confident as most are. Yes over a mile or 10f but I just couldn't back him at the price given his pedigree over an extra half mile. Will let him win at that price and I may well be happy to see him do so. I do want to try find something to outstay him...at the moment I haven't got one (haven't looked much further than Telescope as of yet but today's reports aren't good) and I may not find one, in which case it'll be a mere watching race for the second year running.

[Binchy]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby You're probably right. I'm not as clued in as some members of this forum and I won't pretend to be, but looking at it purely from a logical point of view it would seem the trainer thinks it has a chance, whether he's right or wrong only time will tell.

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I guess we'll see soon enough because if he's genuinely just as good as he showed this morning then I can't believe Stoute would run him in a Derby. He took him to Lingfield because he did the same with Workforce. He obviously knows what you need for a Derby so would be surprised if he entered a relative no-hoper.

[Aidymac]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby I don't know why ye don't think Dawn Approach won't get the trip. His father won the derby, and he just won over a mile going away at the finish, never once looked under pressure passing the line. Dawn Approach will stay 1m 4f, there is no question about that. This is all the same hula-baloo that happened with Sea The Stars.

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

I don't know why ye don't think Dawn Approach won't get the trip. His father won the derby' date=' and he just won over a mile going away at the finish, never once looked under pressure passing the line. Dawn Approach will stay 1m 4f, there is no question about that. This is all the same hula-baloo that happened with Sea The Stars.[/quote'] I didn't say I don't think he will necessarily, I'm saying am I going to back him at even money or whatever to do so in a classic? Nope. New Approach won the Derby but there was a lot of doubt about him going into the race and he had more stamina in his pedigree than Dawn Approach. Most would say NA was best at 1m2f. All I'm saying is a lot of horses finish races off well over a mile but some don't even get home over 1m2f! He's the best horse without a doubt and his class may get him home but 1m4f will not be his optimum trip in my opinion and in a stronger renewal I'd be laying him I think but finding something top class in the field is the hard part! Put it this way, he might win a Derby but I'd be very surprised if he won an Arc. Only my opinion...I've been wrong in the past, I've been right in the past, but that's the fun of it :loon

[Smarty72]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

I don't know why ye don't think Dawn Approach won't get the trip. His father won the derby' date=' and he just won over a mile going away at the finish, never once looked under pressure passing the line. Dawn Approach will stay 1m 4f, there is no question about that. This is all the same hula-baloo that happened with Sea The Stars.[/quote'] Totally agree with you Aidymac on this one. I can not understand why people doubt Dawn Approach's pedigree is not up to getting the Derby distance. For me he is a cast iron certainty to see out the distance and deserves his place at the top of the Derby Betting. Dawn Approach's sire New Approach who won the Derby. New Approach's Sire Galileo won the Derby. New Approach's dam Park Express was sired by Ahonoora who was the Daddy of Derby Winner Dr Devious. Galileo's Sire Sadler's Wells produced lots of middle/staying distance Group 1 winners at the very top level. For me that looks a quality Derby breeding.

[mowgli77]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Totally agree with you Aidymac on this one. I can not understand why people doubt Dawn Approach's pedigree is not up to getting the Derby distance. For me he is a cast iron certainty to see out the distance and deserves his place at the top of the Derby Betting. Dawn Approach's sire New Approach who won the Derby. New Approach's Sire Galileo won the Derby. New Approach's dam Park Express was sired by Ahonoora who was the Daddy of Derby Winner Dr Devious. Galileo's Sire Sadler's Wells produced lots of middle/staying distance Group 1 winners at the very top level. For me that looks a quality Derby breeding.

Jim Bolger previously said DA wouldn't get the Derby trip, probably wouldn't go the Derby route and said all he could to put people off fancying it for the Derby but it could have all been a smokescreen as we've seen that type of behaviour before. Most thought Frankel would win easily at 1m4f yet we never got to see it. At least we'll see if Dawn Approach can win a Derby, we'll hopefully get to see if he can win an Arc too later in the season. Can't see them going the triple crown St Leger route with him. He doesn't pull hard or use up energy too easily so he should relax well in the Derby to get the trip.

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby TELESCOPE out of the DERBY.... NO SURPRISE THERE......;)

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Totally agree with you Aidymac on this one. I can not understand why people doubt Dawn Approach's pedigree is not up to getting the Derby distance. For me he is a cast iron certainty to see out the distance and deserves his place at the top of the Derby Betting. Dawn Approach's sire New Approach who won the Derby. New Approach's Sire Galileo won the Derby. New Approach's dam Park Express was sired by Ahonoora who was the Daddy of Derby Winner Dr Devious. Galileo's Sire Sadler's Wells produced lots of middle/staying distance Group 1 winners at the very top level. For me that looks a quality Derby breeding.

Dam's side is far from quality Derby breeding though. When his trainer is only talking about there being a "reasonable chance" he'll get home, I'm not going to be lumping on. Like I say though, he may not need to truly stay to win the Derby this year. Another poor renewal.

[Aidymac]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Dam's side is far from quality Derby breeding though. When his trainer is only talking about there being a "reasonable chance" he'll get home' date=' I'm not going to be lumping on. Like I say though, he may not need to truly stay to win the Derby this year. Another poor renewal.[/quote'] No matter how poor the Derby is, if you don't stay 1m 4f, you won't win the derby.

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

No matter how poor the Derby is' date=' if you don't stay 1m 4f, you won't win the derby.[/quote'] If you don't stay it at all, no, but you don't have to be a strong stayer over the trip necessarily to get you home. DA won't be a strong stayer over 1m4f in my opinion. We'll see anyway but I think he'll either have quickened too far clear 2f out to catch or will be vulnerable late on. Bear in mind I know nothing though :cow I know it's unpopular and I'm pretty much on my own! Anyway, pointless discussion really, I need to crack on with today's racing first :loon

[erhaab1965]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

No matter how poor the Derby is' date=' if you don't stay 1m 4f, you won't win the derby.[/quote'] Benny the Drip failed to get the trip but managed to win the Derby a few years back by outsmarting the field.

[erhaab1965]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

TELESCOPE out of the DERBY.... NO SURPRISE THERE......;)

Bookies delighted at keeping hold of bucket loads of mug money.

[Aidymac]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby Ok, here is the video of Benny The Dip winning the derby. How on earth can anyone say he didnt not stay the trip? They were miles clear of third horse :lol

[Jimmy2shoes]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby

Bookies delighted at keeping hold of bucket loads of mug money.

Yipp......and what a piss poor looking Derby, more than happy to keep my cash in my pocket, it will whittle down to a field of about 9 or 10 Roll on the proper racing, the flat caps NOT the top hat toffs, The Jumps.

[Primevil]

Re: 2013 Epsom Derby It's not the race, that we have or will have a low turnout. As I said to have a 130 horse, will scare most. Did we have a piss poor QUEEN MOTHER or did we have a superstar? Just sit back and watch a great horse in action.