The Big Grind| Failed

[Nade]

I play a lot of hands as most people know but this month i've not been putting in the hours. Not only that but in general every month i only manage probably about 50% of the volume i know i'm capable of. Some days i've played 7,000, 9,000 hands etc but it's not consistent. I always wondered what would happen if i actually ran to the line as it were. Instead of saying i'll do more tomorrow... it's too late in the year for that. The goal is to put in 150,000 hands with profit by the end of this month. An average of 7-8hrs play/day. It will be Zoom 25nl 6max. I've played about 22,000 hands of it so far over the past couple of weeks trying various styles and strategies and think i have a fair grasp on the games. It's just about putting the volume in and i have a wealth of experience to help in doing that every day for the next 23 days. It's time to face my fears... Any questions of messages fire away :ok

[andybell666]

Re: The Big Grind Good luck with this and keep us posted with your progress.....

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind Cheers buddy will do... [ATTACH=CONFIG]3458[/ATTACH]

[Bart(UK)]

Re: The Big Grind Ooh Gl Nade :hope Following with interest.

[glceud]

Re: The Big Grind 8 hrs of zoom a day,word of advice don,t do it. Of course you have to, but there must be a better option Good luck and keep us posted.

[hebert10]

Re: The Big Grind GL with this will keep an eye out for how you're doing! :ok

[ColU_FC]

Re: The Big Grind Question. Why does it matter if you "only manage probably about 50% of the volume i know i'm capable of"? I am reminded of a valuable business maxim "Turnover is Vanity, Profit is Sanity, Cash is Reality".

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind Because the harder i work the best chance i give myself. A quote Eric Thomas said earlier today is very apt: "To be the most effective you, you can't rely on the words & opinions of others. At some point u have to be courageous enough to believe in u"

[ColU_FC]

Re: The Big Grind Fair enough but don't confuse effort with effectiveness. There are an optimum number of hours that a person can work per day. This varies between people. However, go over that optimum number and effectiveness decreases and productivity drops. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind First day in the bag... on pace and that's just 6hrs/day All the crazies come out from the evening on-wards so that calls for a change of style to becoming a nit which i made too late, cost me a few buy-ins but same old same old. Run good so far :ok

[ColU_FC]

Re: The Big Grind

that's just 6hrs/day

I know foook all about poker but I've got good business knowledge. A 6 hour shift seems eminently sensible to me and, in my opinion, is likely to yield optimum effectiveness. PS. You wouldn't believe the number of computer programmers who I've TOLD to go home after they had worked for 8 hours and were intending to work on for another 4 or so. Their productivity really did improve when they stopped working silly hours.

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind Would your opinion change at all if you knew the hours i play are divided up into 30-60min sessions.

[ColU_FC]

Re: The Big Grind

Would your opinion change at all if you knew the hours i play are divided up into 30-60min sessions.

Yes.

[ColU_FC]

Re: The Big Grind Your profession is ideally suited to measurement. In business, if you can't measure what you're doing then you're working in the dark. I'll bet with all the data you've collected you can assess what are the ideal number of hours that you should play each day in order to give optimal returns. In fact, I'll bet you already know the answer. ;) What I learnt when I was working (it took me 30 years to figure it out) is that there are a number of immutable truths. My greatest frustration when I worked was seeing people disregard these truths and seek to prove them wrong. The result was inevitable costly failure. One of the immutable truths is never ever confuse effort with effectiveness. I'm not interested in people who say they work hard, it's irrelevant. I'm interested in results. Some of the most talented people I've met have been inheritantly lazy. I'd better shut up before I get on to why "applied laziness" is a quality to be prized. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immutable_truth

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind It was going along solidly in profit then tilted my bollocks off in my last session. The image doesn't seem to be loading properly (must be an omen) but it's -$96 if anyone can't see it. Nitting it up just doesn't work in these games i just started to get ground down started to tilt. Very unprofessional. So easy to play against. I just checked the players i've played more than 200 hands with in these games. The vast majority of the nits are either down or only up very marginally. The loose gooses are crushing, relatively speaking. The good thing about putting in a ton of volume is a) you get to try out lots of strategies, see what works what doesn't and b) you get to play a ton of hands vs good players who you can learn from. I plan to study the hell out of a lot of these guys (30+) over the next day and post my findings to help all of us out :ok What i do still find strange, despite the vast liquidity of these games (played against over 5,000 different players) just simply nitting it up and getting paid off with hands isn't enough. And it's not the blinds. My blind losses have actually been a lot less than i've had for years so it's just that you've got be a lot more dynamic in these games as there are so many unique (in every sense) players. :ok

[glceud]

Re: The Big Grind Regards the blinds is it just in the nitting up stage that you are reducing losses? Have always thought I mange to maximise my losses in the blinds to the point that open folding would result in better results. Perhaps if your results in the blinds are better then you have at least learned that nitting up works in that position and all you need to do now is work out just how Lag you can get away with around the rest of the table. Anyway good luck and when you come up with the formula let us know.

[glceud]

Re: The Big Grind Cancel that, more likely that its just a case of it getting it folded round to your blind more often.

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind I'm not too sure why my losses from the blinds in these games specifically is a lot better than what i've previously had playing zoom, it must be a combination of worse players not playing blind v blind situations well enough and some variance. Have studied 15 opponents today, all are 22%+ VPIP and all have been winning well. What struck me first is the amazing variety in how the players play. Some min-open every position, some pot open every position, some barely play in early position some barely play on the button etc. It's given me a great collage of how to play poker. I have to factor in some possible variance into each player as the samples i have are only a few hundred hands but that is why studying many opponents is key, no matter if there is variance involved in one particular players results, overall i can learn a lot. Safe to say i've learned a ton on how people play a lot of hands and the strategies they employ. From the blinds they take a very liberal approach, most of them are playing 22%+ even into the thirties from the SB. Now, i have to say in these games i'm not a fan of bloating a lot of pots out of position as nobody ever folds anything when 3bet. The strategy i do like which some use is to steal a ton from the SB, about 60-70%. My usual steal is 40-50% from SB and looking at the sizes they use quite a variety of sizes but the one i like most (and seemed to work best) is the just under 3x BB raise. The same basically applies to the button too. What i found most interesting is these guys just don't care. They play their range (rightly or wrongly) regardless of who's on their left, the blinds etc. My play for a while now has been largely based around my opponents, if there are aggros on my left then tighten up, if they're not folding the blind then don't raise etc. This led to a very nitty gameplan. I think there's a lot of merits in playing your opponent but i backed myself into a corner whereby i was playing the game they wanted me to play. What the loose good players do is play their own game and let others adjust to them simple as that. The adjustments must then come post flop and that's always been a stronger part of my game. Now with more confidence in how to play a looser pre-flop game i'm relatively confident of better results. The other thing i learned is these guys make it cheap. The majority make mainly just over half pot bets and sometimes small 3bets pre-flop. One guy barely makes any bets above 5bb pre or post which is an exception but still interesting to witness its success. Any questions ask away.

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind I just feel sick to my stomach. This year has left me sick. I ran good for 100k hands about March time, the only reason i know that is because the million hands either side of that have been inhumane. Even the worst player in the world can win consistently. Think my longest run in the past 6months is 3days. It gets to the point where you have the 2nd nuts over and over again and you know you've lost, yesterday i had quad 3s and get raised on the river, i knew they had quad sevens because that's normal. But i won't quit. Poker is my dream it's my passion. I can change this...

[glceud]

Re: The Big Grind It's horrible for me reading your posts sometimes as I really cant see were your going with this other than long term frustation,boredom and stress(welcome to my world). Are you making enough for it to be better than a "real job"? I've been doing this for years due to a couple of personal reasons but plan to get out soon, might even post that in the poker challenges forum:\. I did two months hard labour in the summer,paid some taxes and felt great for it. When you strated your Cash Game Challenge 4 Life thread there was so much more optimism and goals about your game, now all you seem interested in is finding a fixed way of cashing at some form of poker and then putting in enough volume to make some sort of living out of it. I was, before your last post, going to ask if you were taking anything out of zoom that could be applied to other forms of poker. Only thing I learned of any use was that if you flop a flush every one will fold unless they have a bigger flush. Now everytime the board is single suited I bet. I believe in your ability to work this problem out but the stuff you have written on here in the past has always suggested you should be looking at more challenging problems than $25 zoom.

[teaulc]

Re: The Big Grind Tom, is there a specific reason you are doing this on Stars? have you thought about a different platform at all?

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind

Tom, is there a specific reason you are doing this on Stars? have you thought about a different platform at all?

Only other option would be FTP.

[Woodie]

Re: The Big Grind Good luck that is a grind, how many fpps you expecting roughly got to be a load?

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind

It's horrible for me reading your posts sometimes as I really cant see were your going with this other than long term frustation,boredom and stress(welcome to my world). Are you making enough for it to be better than a "real job"? I've been doing this for years due to a couple of personal reasons but plan to get out soon, might even post that in the poker challenges forum:\. I did two months hard labour in the summer,paid some taxes and felt great for it. When you strated your Cash Game Challenge 4 Life thread there was so much more optimism and goals about your game, now all you seem interested in is finding a fixed way of cashing at some form of poker and then putting in enough volume to make some sort of living out of it. I was, before your last post, going to ask if you were taking anything out of zoom that could be applied to other forms of poker. Only thing I learned of any use was that if you flop a flush every one will fold unless they have a bigger flush. Now everytime the board is single suited I bet. I believe in your ability to work this problem out but the stuff you have written on here in the past has always suggested you should be looking at more challenging problems than $25 zoom.

Money wise it's probably not better than a 'real job' right now, no.

Good luck that is a grind' date=' how many fpps you expecting roughly got to be a load?[/quote'] Not far off 30,000 or $500.

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind Ok so things have been going a lot better the last few days. This is the total so far just over 50,000 hands played Behind schedule. My winnings post midnight not only lately but the past few months are really terrible, like off the scale bad, i don't know why but my brain seems to shut off then. Instead i'll be starting sessions early and barely playing past midnight. For a few weeks around March time when i was putting in 6-7k hands/day i was starting at 7:30am so early starts are good, i know they work and i can do it. oh and what i've been listening to the last few days, perfect chill out playlist

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind I just thought i could come up with a strategy that beat the variance... I was wrong. There's no point me ranting about this and that... nobody would care about a million bad beat stories. I've had a good innings, over 2million hands played and i've seen it all and it's been an interesting journey the past 5years. It gets to the point though where... you just can't win. A couple of months back i posted my allins pre-flop with KK this year - i was down money. Try and digest that for a moment. The final straw was in the space of thirty seconds tonight i squeezed KK and then AA, both got called, both got all-in post flop. The first guy had flopped three 9's with J9, the second a guy turns a full-house with 44. Now imagine those 2 hands multiplied by thousands over the course of the past year. Just constantly getting hit by trucks. It didn't matter the sequence of events, all the infinite amount of ways a hand and situation can play out ended in one result - me losing. It makes you consider everything, were my positive results for years just good variance. It's incredibly hard to get it into context when i've seen so much good and bad luck over the years. It just really feels like i have to quit. Either it's me running absurdly bad and it's not going to turn around, or i play bad and have little desire to turn it around. It feels like every person who's played poker professionally either has or will at some point reach this moment where they've got to confront the reality - are they good enough to overcome the variance and become a great player, or succumb. Now i'll be the first to admit my game probably isn't near where it was 2years ago, but neither are the games, neither is the economy, the world economy has had a huge impact on the games and probably the combination of that and my shrinking desire to work to become the best has brought me to this point. They say luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. I can be completely content that i gave my all, my preparation has been largely faultless for as long as i can remember, and i kept giving myself the opportunity to make money. Every day i'd turn up to the felt and give my all. This grinder is gone. Sorry i couldn't fulfill the dream. My ambition was to win a bracelet and dedicate the win to PuntersLounge because of all the support i've gotten over the years, but it's just not going to happen. Any questions or comments fire away :ok Thanks.

[glceud]

Re: The Big Grind| Failed Well I don't think you should give up,you still talk the best game on here. Maybe you should go back to two tabling 6 max at full tilt, that woked didn't it? I think you have become obsessed with volume as you keep going back to rush type games. These are just computer games not poker and you have thought far deeper than that about the game. I suggested in the past you should try live cash more. I dont know if you have, but I really do believe that you have a far deeper understanding of the game than most people you will find in the casino. It's a totally different game but I am sure you can work it out. You said sometimes you play bad and have little desire to turn it around, again welcome to my world. Not sure on the answer to that one, let me know when you find it. I have never liked the variance word as it only applies to hands that go to showdown. In tourneys you dont get knocked out by the guy with sucking out with J9 against your AA you get knocked out because he had more chips than you. I think the best players make more money than the worst players before showdown and that has nothing to do with variance.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: The Big Grind

I just thought i could come up with a strategy that beat the variance... I was wrong. There's no point me ranting about this and that... nobody would care about a million bad beat stories. I've had a good innings, over 2million hands played and i've seen it all and it's been an interesting journey the past 5years. It gets to the point though where... you just can't win. A couple of months back i posted my allins pre-flop with KK this year - i was down money. Try and digest that for a moment. The final straw was in the space of thirty seconds tonight i squeezed KK and then AA, both got called, both got all-in post flop. The first guy had flopped three 9's with J9, the second a guy turns a full-house with 44. Now imagine those 2 hands multiplied by thousands over the course of the past year. Just constantly getting hit by trucks. It didn't matter the sequence of events, all the infinite amount of ways a hand and situation can play out ended in one result - me losing. It makes you consider everything, were my positive results for years just good variance. It's incredibly hard to get it into context when i've seen so much good and bad luck over the years. It just really feels like i have to quit. Either it's me running absurdly bad and it's not going to turn around, or i play bad and have little desire to turn it around. It feels like every person who's played poker professionally either has or will at some point reach this moment where they've got to confront the reality - are they good enough to overcome the variance and become a great player, or succumb. Now i'll be the first to admit my game probably isn't near where it was 2years ago, but neither are the games, neither is the economy, the world economy has had a huge impact on the games and probably the combination of that and my shrinking desire to work to become the best has brought me to this point. They say luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. I can be completely content that i gave my all, my preparation has been largely faultless for as long as i can remember, and i kept giving myself the opportunity to make money. Every day i'd turn up to the felt and give my all. This grinder is gone. Sorry i couldn't fulfill the dream. My ambition was to win a bracelet and dedicate the win to PuntersLounge because of all the support i've gotten over the years, but it's just not going to happen. Any questions or comments fire away :ok Thanks.

Chase the dream pal, chase the dream. You obviously have a deep knowledge of the game so maybe it's just the type of games you're playing that have beaten you. Im confident that anyone with any sense of discipline and bankroll management can grind a living playing Sit n Go's on Stars if you can put the volume in. You're only here once, do what you love, and that's poker.

[Nade]

Re: The Big Grind

Well I don't think you should give up,you still talk the best game on here. Maybe you should go back to two tabling 6 max at full tilt, that woked didn't it? I think you have become obsessed with volume as you keep going back to rush type games. These are just computer games not poker and you have thought far deeper than that about the game. I suggested in the past you should try live cash more. I dont know if you have, but I really do believe that you have a far deeper understanding of the game than most people you will find in the casino. It's a totally different game but I am sure you can work it out. You said sometimes you play bad and have little desire to turn it around, again welcome to my world. Not sure on the answer to that one, let me know when you find it. I have never liked the variance word as it only applies to hands that go to showdown. In tourneys you dont get knocked out by the guy with sucking out with J9 against your AA you get knocked out because he had more chips than you. I think the best players make more money than the worst players before showdown and that has nothing to do with variance.

You're right, i kept getting drawn back to putting in huge volume, maybe i could attempt to try on FTP again like 'the good old days'. Live cash is something i should also consider.

Chase the dream pal, chase the dream. You obviously have a deep knowledge of the game so maybe it's just the type of games you're playing that have beaten you. Im confident that anyone with any sense of discipline and bankroll management can grind a living playing Sit n Go's on Stars if you can put the volume in. You're only here once, do what you love, and that's poker.

Not sure about SNGs i always just assumed there's too many math people playing those to make them worthwhile but i don't know for sure. The reason i kept going was for the dream, because it's an amazing opportunity not many people get but i don't know maybe i just can't do it... but maybe it just needs a change of focus like you guys say.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The Big Grind| Failed 1. I've pretty much reached the same point, I just can't be bothered with the game any more. Maybe a few months off and I'll have the desire again. 2. Single Table and Turbo/Hyper-Turbo SNGs are full of math wizards. Regular speed MTT SNGs aren't.