Rulings?

[Senshi]

I play in a Poker League with friends on a Monday night, nothing overly special but it has got gradually more serious and finally the play from everyone has started to improve, actual tables and Poker Blind clocks rather than just alarms on phones etc. Anyway a weird situation arose this week and there was two decisions that I didn't know the answer nor did anyone else really and both involved the guy running it and both funnily enough were ruled in his favour. However, anyone expressing their feelings to the decision were told if you don't like it then don't come down next week then. Dummy well and truly spat out. So if anyone could help me find out what should happen as my live play is limited to playing on a Monday and going to a local free roll here and there. If you can help cheers and sorry if I posted it in the wrong place. 1st Situation =========== (I was actually sat on the other table) The flop was out and the player in Seat 3 decided to go all in. It got folded to Seat 6 who was deciding whether to call or not when the guy in seat 7(the league runner) decided to call the all in. The guy in Seat 6 spoke up saying he had yet to act and in the end he decided to call. The guy in Seat 7 then pulled his chips back out. Question 1: Should his chips of stayed in? My Opinion: As he acted out of turn I would of said they have to stay in, giving the guy in Seat 6 free information, his call was actually an All in himself and the lad in Seat 7 would surely want it in with extra value in anyway? Outcome: Seat 6 Actually won and Seat 7 had two overs with a Flush Draw which actually missed. 2nd Situation =========== The two guys in the previous hand were involved again Seat 6 and Seat 7. The flop had come down with 3 others involved in the pot. Seat 7 decided to put a bet in and it all folded to the guy in Seat 6 who still yet to act. Seat 7 then mucked his cards and started to rake the pot. This one is slightly more trivial and I think Player 6 was just a bit upset about the previous hand and he said he should win the pot. (This point we were about 4 off the money from 20) Question 2: Who wins this pot? My Opinion: It is meant to be a friendly game so I would let him take the cards out of the muck and continue to play. It was a genuine mistake after all. Outcome: The cards came out of the muck. Seat 7 bet on the turn and Seat 6 folded his draw.

[danj2202]

the player who acted out of turn in scenario one should have to stand by that action in scenario two the cards when mucked are dead so the only player left in should be taking that pot....i once mucked aces in a tournament as i thought i heard the other player announce fold (action taking place on turn) we agreed to split pot in the end though he had every right to ask for a ruling and it would have been in his favour Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[avongirl]

Re: Rulings? No expert, but I agree with Dan. If you act out of turn the action has to stand and chips stay in the pot, anyone before you just gets free info. In some events, the TD will also make you sit out a couple of rounds as a penalty. And if the hand is mucked, it stays mucked. In this actual case, I guess seat 6 technically has to put in a bet to take down the pot? Worst case I ever saw of an accidental muck was at an APAT game this year. Guy goes all-in and the dealer (presumably on auto-pilot) reaches forward and takes his cards into the muck, next guy pushes all-in and takes down the pot uncontested, first guy after a ruling is out of the tournament !

[Haichan]

Re: Rulings? Dans right on scenario 1. The guys action is binding. Similar situation happened to me in the Goliath at Coventry last year. New table and a guy in early limped. As i was about to act, guy next to me said loudly I check. I then raised and he immedietly moved all in. I objected and Tournament director told him his orginal decleration was binding and he had to call my raise but could not reraise. He was warned but not given a penalty. In many live games now players would be given a penalty. The fact was the guy was angle shooting. He wanted to go all in but was trying to induce action from me. On scenario 2 cards in the muck are always dead. It doesn't matter if its a friendly game. If you don't follow the rules then you cannot play properly in other games outside the home game. its a bit like playing football but saying the offside rule doesn't apply to your game. In a recent major tournament, a dealer accidently mucked a players winning hand as it was about to be displayed. It was ruled that he had lost the hand and that he should have protected his cards better

[Senshi]

Re: Rulings? Cheers, I thought that was the standing for Rule 1 and I suppose Rule 2 as well but was not 100% on the second one at least. I just wanted to find out for definite as the Organiser like I say spat his dummy out and said if you don't like it don't bother coming along,. Out of all of my friends I probably have the most live experience so they always turn to me to find out what should happen in both situations. I said to him in first he needs to stand by decision but I was involved in a hand on the other table. Second one I wasn't sure of and rather than have a full blown argument I thought it would be OK to take them out of the muck. I understand why you cannot in a bigger tournament. That in itself brings up another question. I have a friend who when he goes All in he puts his chips on his cards and moves them all forward am I right in thinking as both pass the line that he is going all in and mucking? Again he is more of a home game player but he has started to go to casino with us and well I seen him do it at casino is it a habit he needs to get out of now? There was one more question that I have, I think at least this one went out the way it should of at least I hope... There was a limp, raise and an All In. The raise was made by the tournament runner (he is always controversial more I think of it) and the All in was made by (Seat 6 in my Example). The limper sat next to the tournament runner showed him his cards and then folded. The TR then after seeing the other guys cards was contemplating calling. I said the hand was dead because he had seen some hole cards from another player before making his decision claiming he was calling anyway. So the All in took the pot? I have played online for a while but recently wanted to try and get more involved with the live play of it, at casino these things are less frequent than when playing with my friends, who are all relatively new but anything I can pick up and learn now is a great help and I appreciate your time in answering these questions.

[teaulc]

Re: Rulings? happened with me in one of the 1st live games and very inexperienced, i called all in out of turn and it had to stand. no objections on my part, all part of the learning curve

[Haichan]

Re: Rulings? The rule is that it is your responsibility to protect your cards at all time and to clearly declare your actions. If you push your cards across the line without declaring all in then your hand is dead. Its why I always announce my actions such as raise before pushing my chips in. On your second point, players are not allowed to show cards or declare the hand they held whilst the action is live. It can be both a penalty to the player showing or in extremene cases players could be expelled from the game for collusion. In the event that someone shows their cards even accidently it should be shown to all players at the table. Its surprising how many players even in live tournaments don't know that you are not allowed to disclose your hand. Roberts rules of Poker which seem to be the basis for most casino poker room rules are very clear http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/roberts_rules_of_poker/rules-of-texas-holdem "No Disclosure Players are obligated to protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not: 1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands, 2. Advise or criticize play at any time, 3. Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled."

[gettingfatter]

Re: Rulings? I have played live maybe 2 times in my life (other than jokey home games with friends), so answers may not be entirely correct. However I have read rulings threads on 2+2 a bit. Hand 1 - is as clear as day, Seat 7 is either angle shooting or is too stupid/uninformed to run a tournament. Seat 7s call is binding imo, seat 6 gets to make his decision knowing that seat 7s call is binding. Hand 2 - AFAIK hands are not always dead when they hit the muck. I have read a few scenarios when hands that can be retrieved have been (usually involving dealer error though) so if it is a friendly game and it is possible then that is fine. Maybe the rest of the hand is called void, so if seat 6 calls the hand is completed to showdown with no further action? Idk. Seat 7 sounds like a huge twat.

[Senshi]

Re: Rulings? In all honesty Seat 7 guy is actually rather sound other than when playing Poker, it has took me about a year of our league game to get used to his style of play but have finally profiled him enough to know exactly how his game is played. The problem was I probably do have the most experience out of the lot who go down for playing live but was on the wrong table, he just hates to be proved wrong but at table some of his plays are crazy, happily calling with any two suited cards and pushing them to the extreme just shoving on flops with two suited cards, gets tedious but it pays off quite a lot as your unsure those cards are his suit etc. Hell he even called one guy as to having Aces pre flop and he called with AQs and hit his flush! Cheers for everyones input though, feel alot more comfortable on what to do in those situations.