Antepost > 2012/13

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

I don't disagree with a single word of your whole write-up Mirage. Gervinho is all flare, never delivers where it is needed. Over-does it on the ball. Walcott will have his usual 4 or 5 great performances and his 30 crap one's, he is not consistent enough, and i don't think it is inexperience, he just has no brain for the game, if he didn't have his speed, he wouldn't even be a pro footballer in my opinion. I agree that Van Persie was the key man last year, and at the moment i can't see how they will get the goals to compete for the top 4, never mind the Top 2. We can all expect an improved showing from both Chelsea and Liverpool this season in my opinion.

[Mirage]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 Yeah, Walcott is fast becoming a major disappointment. I don't doubt his ability but he doesn't seem to get in to good positions often enough and I don't think he will develop in to the good centre forward that some pundits seem to think will be his future role. He has speed, can whip in decent crosses and has the ability to finish but there are too many game where he is non-existent. He is too easy to mark out of a game but that is also probably to do with the lack of big weapons throughout the Arsenal line-up that would take the focus off him. Gervinho is absolutely awful. That's all I can really say about him.

[IAmGooner]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 I'd need 50/1 to back us for the title. But still, we'll be well in there for Top 4 places(3rd/4th). Wouldn't be overly worried about the business other clubs have done so far really. Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal battling for 2 spots I'd say. Wouldnt put Liverpool in that bracket, why would you in fairness> They are not a top 4 team in recent years. And links to Dempsey etc wont change my view there, good player as he is. They've signed Borini today I've watched him alot last year at Roma and he works hard, is versatile, quite talented but I doubt he can make a big impact right away. Wouldnt see him getting more than 10 goals really.

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

I'd need 50/1 to back us for the title. But still, we'll be well in there for Top 4 places(3rd/4th). Wouldn't be overly worried about the business other clubs have done so far really. Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal battling for 2 spots I'd say. Wouldnt put Liverpool in that bracket, why would you in fairness> They are not a top 4 team in recent years. And links to Dempsey etc wont change my view there, good player as he is. They've signed Borini today I've watched him alot last year at Roma and he works hard, is versatile, quite talented but I doubt he can make a big impact right away. Wouldnt see him getting more than 10 goals really.

Liverpool have played really boring football the past few years though, Rogers will inject the Swansea-like football into the club, only with far better individuals. In my opinion, we will see a much improved Liverpool this season.

[Mirage]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

Good write up though I would like to see more factual evidence to back up all the opinion on show. Giroud/Podolski unproven fair enough but where is the evidence to suggest unproven stars fail more often than they succeed? Drogba, Van Persie, Fabregas, Aguero, all these players had just as much to prove and came from foreign leagues. But they all did very well. I would be far more surprised to see Giroud do badly, whereas Podolski is more of a risk but can still perform as he will have less pressure to deal with. I say this of course, because I won't generally change my opinion based on another persons opinion no matter how well they write. facts however are what my opinion is based upon, and can affect my opinion is a big way. So when I see facts to support this notion that unproven players are likely to fail in their first seasons, I will of course drop my caseview and support the factually backed one instead :)

People class failure differently to the next person because someone can only be judged to have failed or succeeded against individual expectations. Well, obviousy there are certain factors that people consider when judging whether signings from abroad are, in their view, going to be good signings. Facts don't really come in to it for me. I don't look in to too much detail at how other imports from a certain league have done before judging a player coming from that country, for example. Look at the stats Mateja Kezman came over here with, on paper he should have done well but didn't and on the other hand someone like Van Nistelrooy came over from the same league and left with an outstanding record. It is all about personal views on this type of thing so, like a lot of things pre-season, facts don't always come first when putting my money down. Nobody is expecting you to change your mind because they think they are 'more right' than you. I don't agree with a lot of things you say but everyone will post something at some point that brings up a view that somebody else won't have considered. This game is all about opinions, opinion and more opinions. If it wasn't there would not be a vast amount of posters here, a variety of bookmakers offering a variety of prices and words such as 'gambling'.

[Mirage]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

I'd need 50/1 to back us for the title. But still, we'll be well in there for Top 4 places(3rd/4th). Wouldn't be overly worried about the business other clubs have done so far really. Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal battling for 2 spots I'd say. Wouldnt put Liverpool in that bracket, why would you in fairness> They are not a top 4 team in recent years. And links to Dempsey etc wont change my view there, good player as he is. They've signed Borini today I've watched him alot last year at Roma and he works hard, is versatile, quite talented but I doubt he can make a big impact right away. Wouldnt see him getting more than 10 goals really.

I agree with all of this and think Rodgers will make a bigger impact in the 2013/14 campaign when he has had a season to get the team playing how he wants and bring in more of his kind of player. I am not convinced this Liverpool squad can adapt straight away and, although they have a decent starting line-up, their squad overall looks very weak. Gerrard has never gave the impression that he will be comfortable playing the patient passing game as I reckon he is much better when taking the game by the scruff of the neck and driving at defences. From what I have seen of him, Borini will do well to be consistent enough to show he deserves a 10m+ price and they desperately need wide men who are willing to take players on. Downing hasn't changed since I was watching him week in, week out for Boro and I don't expect him to be going at full-backs hard any time soon. At this moment in time, it will still be left to Gerrard and Suarez to do the business but maybe Rodgers will get in a couple of class acts to reduce the workload on the pair. However, I don't see how (history aside) they can attract them for purely footballing reasons. Rodgers has a tough task here and I think that a finish of 6th will be an ok season. They could even struggle for that if Newcastle carry on their good form.

[Mirage]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 Good post, Brooke. The top 6 at the moment would be: 1st Man. City 2nd Man. United 3rd Chelsea 4th Tottenham 5th Arsenal 6th Newcastle That is based on a current squads plus the assumptions that RVP leaves Arsenal and Adebayor signs for Spurs. There is still a long way to go though and this is probably the league I will leave until last to get involved with as there is the potential for big, big signings to happen frequently between now and kick-off. EDIT: Oh, forgot to add that I 100% agree about the point of him not having built his own team before so could find it harder than expected.

[Mirage]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 That's my top 6 based on current manager and squad as well as the odd star man who can win games. Basically, absolutely everything.

[fishy25]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

Chelsea must be loving that post! As will Tottenham, whereas United, Arsenal and Newcastle will not be so keen. So in managerial terms your top 6 look like this: 1st R Mancini (1 previous PL title) 2nd Ferguson (13 previous PL titles) 3rd Di Matteo (no PL titles) 4th A Villas-Boas (no PL titles) 5th A Wenger (3 previous PL titles) 6th A Pardew (no previous PL titles) Or if we go with the one-man team argument instead then it would look like this: 1st Aguero (or I suppose you could argue Balotelli) 2nd Rooney (Hmm can't call a second one!) 3rd Torres (Sturridge? Nahh I doubt that very much) 4th Adebayor (Van der Vaart? Defoe? Bale? God knows who their goalscorers will be this time) 5th Van Persie (or Giroud if he ends up buggering off) 6th Cisse (or Demba Ba if he does the same as he did early doors last season) LOL that puts a new angle on the discussion I feel :D

Tbh I'd pretty much agree with Mirage on that top 6. The 2 Manchester teams are a level or two above anyone else right now despite your opinion that Giroud could make Arsenal finish higher than the likes of Van Persie and Fabregas could achieve together. Speaking as a Chelsea fan, I think the signings we've made have been really positive ones, whilst letting the old crop go is the best thing imaginable. Providing we get a bit of cover at the back, RB especially I think we should be coming third really. IMO (might be hugely debatable), I think Van Persie leaving (if he does of course) is a bigger blow than the likes of Henry and Fabregas leaving. I say that because when the previous 2 left, there were still some world class players at the club attacking wise. Without RVP, there's nobody you'd call world class anymore and the goals he contributed last season will be extremely hard to match with two players, let alone one. With regards to this one man team argument. You can't call Man City a one man team whatsoever so you can immediately discount them from that 'argument'. Think you're missing the point when you are talking about this one man team. If you are picking out one player from a side, it doesn't necessarily have to be the leading man up top. A class example of that is with Chelsea. Even with Drogba at his best, I still felt we missed Lampard more when he wasn't in the side and he was more important to the side than Drogba was. Silva was better than Aguero last season and Toure was as well IMO so if you were to pick one player from that side it wouldn't be Aguero. It's a bit pointless anyway as Man City are far from a one man team. I think the main point about the one man team regarding Arsenal is the fact that without Van Persie last year, they would have been stuffed. He single-handedly won matches on his own really and it's virtually impossible to say that about other sides. You say you base most of your stuff on facts and evidence from what I've read but where is the evidence supporting your argument that Arsenal will finish higher than they did last season? You've said you think Arsenal are ahead of Man Utd this year but I don't see how that is true. To suddenly get ahead of them you would need to improve your side and if they lose Van Persie, you can't possibly say their squad has been strengthened surely?

[Brettfair]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 That's how I'd rank them too, Mirage. I see Liverpool are being overrated yet again though, bookies have given them an implied chance of 71.4% of finishing in the top 6 whereas Newcastle just 22.2%.

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 How did Man Utd over achieve last season? They won........................ Nothing! You attribute finishing 2nd to the manager... He is still there. You again keep ignoring the fact United were injury plagued for the entire season last season, now have a brilliant new signing, and now have Vidic back fit. Arsenal didn't underachieve hugely. They have been around the same position for a good few of the last few seasons. May i remind you that United's points total last season was 89 points, 19 points ahead of Arsenal. United won the 2010-2011 league easily with 80 points. They would have won it by 18 points with 89 points. 89 points is a huge amount of points to have in a season, it would have won nearly any other premier league since it began. So look at the "facts". United played ****e last season, yet still had a superb points total. Where are Arsenal going to find a 19 points difference without Robin Van Persie? I think your judgement is completely clouded through Arsenal glasses, every sane neutral on this planet will say Arsenal have no chance of being in the top 2 next season. Statistically, Arsenal have no chance, factually Arsenal have no chance. Basically, Arsenal have no chance. Who do i think will win the league next season? I genuinely think United have a superb chance, bias aside. As long as Fergie is there, United will always have a big chance. City had an unbelievable home record last season, i think a repeat of that home form is possible, but unlikely. If Arsenal finish 4th, Wenger will be happy, and i am certain that will be his No. 1 goal at the start of the season.

[danj2202]

Man Utd overachieved last season, they had a good start and a good finish which I attribute to their manager in the most part. Arsenal on the other hand underachieved hugely; they lost 3 months of their season through bad transfer management (also the manager it must be said). So whereas Arsenal managed to improve on their previous season despite the 3 months of terrible results and beatings like 8-2 etc, United dropped a league position despite their overachievement. So statistically, if you are purely speculation the league position based on past season reasults and mitigating factors such as transfers you would have to surmise that Arsenal have a good % chance to improve on their season and not experience another 3 months of bad results (never happened before nothing to suggest it will again). But united most likely will not do as well (the last few years they have gotten worse each time). That is what I mean about statisticall and probability wise Arsenal can improve whilst United will find it tough just to stay at their level. It's not rocket science granted, nothing is certain but if it was stocks and shares I would predict a rise in Arsenal and a lull then drop depending on their early season results for Utd. And funnily enough if you check out their index prices, Arsenal's has risen considerably whereas Uniteds has stalled....

i have tried to stay out of this but now will dip my toe in. i have read the OPINIONS on here and watched them be defended as "fact" however the key statement here is that where you want to make a point and make a statement such as "i attribute to their manager in the most part" i would like to ask the question.....what factual basis have you for attributing uniteds early and late season results to the manager? (you also make out like both were good runs but they werent....united had the title wrapped up in early april and blew it). the league table does not lie and city won the league as best over the course of the season but united had me fooled clearly as i thought they were best for a long way. you are beginning to look like someone who preaches their own opinion as if it is fact as i see very little statistical or factual info in many of your posts. you need to stop shooting down others opinions as being wrong when they differ to yours as its what this game is about.....opinions arsenal are unlikely to finish ahead of chelsea utd or city is my opinion but i expect them to finish fourth and in case anybody wants to accuse me of bias i am a watford fan for the record Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Brettfair]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

Man Utd overachieved last season, they had a good start and a good finish which I attribute to their manager in the most part. Arsenal on the other hand underachieved hugely; they lost 3 months of their season through bad transfer management (also the manager it must be said). So whereas Arsenal managed to improve on their previous season despite the 3 months of terrible results and beatings like 8-2 etc, United dropped a league position despite their overachievement. So statistically, if you are purely speculation the league position based on past season reasults and mitigating factors such as transfers you would have to surmise that Arsenal have a good % chance to improve on their season and not experience another 3 months of bad results (never happened before nothing to suggest it will again). But united most likely will not do as well (the last few years they have gotten worse each time). That is what I mean about statisticall and probability wise Arsenal can improve whilst United will find it tough just to stay at their level. It's not rocket science granted, nothing is certain but if it was stocks and shares I would predict a rise in Arsenal and a lull then drop depending on their early season results for Utd. And funnily enough if you check out their index prices, Arsenal's has risen considerably whereas Uniteds has stalled....

Nothing happened before to say otherwise? All that was different about last season with Arsenal in comparison to past seasons was their bad spell came at the start of the season rather than towards the end. You can't just write off consistent bad spells during seasons as underachieving.

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 United got 89 points last season. They got 80 points the year before. Statistically, they had a better season last year, but just ran into a City team with an unbelievable home record. United had 9 points more last year than they did the year before, so statistically how did they perform worse? I don't get you at all, your going around in circles, and you actually believe Arsenal will finish ahead of United this coming season, which i find highly amusing.

[western skies]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 Moving away from the Arsenal debate for a moment, I'm wondering if there's some value to be found in the 9/2 available on West Brom to be relegated. I see this more as a potential trade than a season long bet and I'm basing it almost entirely on the Steve Clarke factor. I'm struggling to think of many 1st team coaches who have made the step up to manager successfully at such a late stage of their career. Clarke is 48 now and it's taken him well over a decade to take the plunge into management, which suggests he either lacked the confidence to do it earlier or, for whatever reason, the opportunities never arose for him. There's no doubt he's a decent coach (although personally I think his reputation relies very heavily on the Mourinho factor - his record at Newcastle, West Ham, & Liverpool is far less impressive than his time at Chelsea), but does he really have the attributes required to take sole charge? Certainly during his time at the Bridge he came over as being the players' friend, and I think he could find it difficult to distance himself and make the tough decisions that a manager needs to make. At West Ham and Liverpool, he seemed powerless to help Zola or Dalglish turn around poor runs of results, and if the Baggies don't hit the ground running under his leadership, I think he could struggle again here. Looking at the squad, it's seems decent enough, with a sprinkling of real talent in the likes of Dorrans, Morrison, & Odemwingie, but then I would have said the same about Blackburn at the start of last season. Now, Clarke would have to go some to prove himself as useless as Steve Kean, but the point remains that organisation and motivation are two key factors for middling Premier League teams such as the Baggies. With Roy Hodgson at the helm, West Brom had one of the most meticulous and experienced organisers in football, and he took a team that was leaking goals and seemingly in freefall under Roberto Di Matteo and made them a comfortable mid-table side. With Hodgson gone and an inexperienced hand on the rudder, there's every chance that they could revert back to being the stuttering, struggling side they were before he arrived. So, the key question is - can Clarke keep them organised and united? My gut feeling is that it could take him some time to settle into the role and achieve that aim, and that he could even be gone by Christmas if the decline looks terminal. That being the case, there should be a decent opportunity to trade out at a significantly lower price than 9/2 sometime before then. I'm not going to pull the trigger just yet, as it will be interesting to see what transfer business is completed over the next month or so, but it's definitely something I'll keep an eye on. Anybody agree/disagree? :unsure

[Mindfulness]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

Moving away from the Arsenal debate for a moment' date=' I'm wondering if there's some value to be found in the 9/2 available on West Brom to be relegated. I see this more as a potential trade than a season long bet and I'm basing it almost entirely on the Steve Clarke factor. Anybody agree/disagree? :unsure[/quote'] First of all, HOW DARE YOU MOVE AWAY FROM THE ARSENAL / WHO WILL FINISH WHERE IN THE TOP 6 DEBATE!!! Not enough has been written on the subject for my money and quite frankly it is a little wreckless to derail the thread in the manor you just did. In all seriousness though I think West Brom to be relegated @ 9/2 should be taken. I totally agree with your Clarke analysis, there are significant risk factors with his appointment. I earmarked West Brom as a relegation contender the momment Hodgson left, a decent managerial replacement would have taken the heat off but there are some real question marks with Clarke. So yes 9/2 for relegation is clear value in my view.

[Mirage]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 I was looking in to West Brom myself WS. It's very tempting because of the reasons you have mentioned but i'll probably look further in to it myself to see whether it is indeed value for me. A bad start and Clarke will soon be realising the pressure of being a manager is very different to the pressure when a coach.

[Jase82]

I agree, I think sides such as west brom, fulham and villa offer slight value in the relegation market as I wouldn't put them too far ahead of the sides priced up around evens. The thing for me regarding west brom will be odemwingie. I like sides that have a real goalscorer, and if they can keep him fit they should have enough goals in them to see them safe, just.

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 I think it all hinges on the management with West Brom. They are certainly quite an average side on paper, and Hodgson got a great tune out of them. I think Norwich are very likey to go down personally, life will be so much different without their manager, and they could suffer from the curse of 2nd season syndrome. I think defensively Norwich are very poor, and at 13/8 i think may be worth a bet.

[Mindfulness]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

I think Norwich are very likey to go down personally' date=' life will be so much different without their manager, and they could suffer from the curse of 2nd season syndrome. I think defensively Norwich are very poor, and at 13/8 i think may be worth a bet.[/quote'] It's funny cos early doors last season I kept expecting Norwich to implode due to their defence but it didn't happen. I know what you mean because the personnel they have at the back are not particularly good for Premier league standard. They played some excellent counter-attacking football under Lambert and had massive ariel threat upfront with Holt and Morison. This combined with the good delivery from wide areas meant they scored more goals from crosses than any other team in the Prem during 2011-2012. They also had excellent home support which made Carrow Road a tough place to travel. I guess the big question is will Hughton steam in there and make wholesale changes? Lambert had an excellent system and if it's followed to the letter then they should survive again but what manager would just copy the old one completely? Defensively they were joint 16th along with QPR in 2011-2012 so it is an area for concern. I don't think I could back them for relegation at that price personally but it is an interesting one.

[Mindfulness]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

You're right about their support' date=' Carrow Road is a nightmare trip for any team these days.[/quote'] As long as Delia doesn't try and get on the pitch at half time and abuse the tannoy system.

[AHughes]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

I agree' date=' I think sides such as west brom, fulham and villa offer slight value in the relegation market as I wouldn't put them too far ahead of the sides priced up around evens. The thing for me regarding west brom will be odemwingie. I like sides that have a real goalscorer, and if they can keep him fit they should have enough goals in them to see them safe, just.[/quote'] Fletcher at Wolves last season? I am Sure Andy Johnson scored 22 goals in the season where Crystal Palace got relegated.

[Jase82]

Fletcher at Wolves last season? I am Sure Andy Johnson scored 22 goals in the season where Crystal Palace got relegated.

I seem to remember a lot of those 21 league goals Johnson scored being penalties? Fletcher scored only 12 league goals last season.

[Mindfulness]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

I seem to remember a lot of those 21 league goals Johnson scored being penalties?

They all count, and he virtually won all those penalties himself! But yes we had a 20+ goalscorer and still went down but it is rare for that to happen in the prem. I seem to remember we would have stayed up if a certain Fratton Park outfit hadn't treated their last game against West Brom as a non-event. :@

[IAmGooner]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 I still think we will finish ahead of Spurs, unless I'm missing something with their business so far. Sigurdsson and Vertonghen in(not exactly sweating about that tbh), Adebayor was already there last season so we know what he offers. Modric likely to leave. We will score goals, if RVP leaves which is not set in stone yet, someone else will take the centre-forward role. We are set up to create chances for the main striker and usually they overperform at Arsenal and look worse when they go to different teams and systems - Adebayor was one who got 30 goals for us, I never believed a player like him could get that, he's still a 15+ goal striker now but never has hit the heights since leaving. I bet RVP will not match his tally from last year if he goes to City or Juve. Hell when we've relied on average players like Bendtner and Chamakh as starters they have scored decent no of goals(Chamakh's first few months he was certain starter and was on 10 before RVP returned and he was left coming off the bench for 6 months that season and all of last season). Point is that we hear this every season, 'oh arsenal are done now after so and so left'. Nobody thought we could rely on RVP yet he thrived last year, Fabregas and Nasri gone, we find a way. Henry left we were done too, funnily we were even stronger in the next season after he left in 07/08 with a low key group of players but well-balanced and people stepped up. We were close to the title that year and should have beaten Liverpool in the CL 1/4 but for some poor refereeing and admittedly dodgy defending. City are favourites anyway, have better players than United who will be there or thereabouts. Chelsea I'm not sure about, what is really impressive with their signings? Hazard comes with massive pressure and will be expected to deliver right away, I think he will find England tough initially. Not big on Marin really, prob a bench player to replace Kalou. Drogba gone aswell which is huge even though he was crap last season bar the big games at the end. Liverpool wont get Top 4, not a chance. Spurs ourselves and Chelski will be in there fighting.

[Mindfulness]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13

Terrible diver' date=' I can't stand him because of that - he isn't THAT damn weak! You are right though if you can blag that many penalties and score them it's a useful if aggravating skill...[/quote'] The irony is Andy Johnson supports Arsenal!

[curby235]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 If Manchester United manage to add another midfielder I think they will be the team to beat. Last season the United team looked one of the weakest in recent times and yet they only lost the title on goal difference. The loss of Vidic was a body blow and the lack of quality and numbers in midfield meant that Carrick and Scholes had to carry the side. I think the youngsters Rafael, De Gea, Jones (who I expect huge improvement from), Evans, Smalling, Cleverley, Hernandez and Welbeck will all improve for the experience. Manchester City were deserving champions and yet despite having spent the most money and assembled the most talented squad they staggered over the linein the end. Although they have a strong spine and seem to have plenty of numbers I feel that if they lost either Kompany or Toure as United lost Vidic they would struggle. The soap opera that surrounds Ballotelli and Tevez will surely explode once again next season if these powder kegs are still at the club. Chelsea should make huge improvements next season having added Hazard, Marin and possibly Oscar. There seems to be a commitment to play attacking football and along with Mata should make Chelsea one of the most entertaining sides around. However, Torres still failed to sparkle in the all conquering Spanish team during the European Championships. He was left out of big games despite the fact that he was the most senior striker available in the absence of Villa and yet Fabregas was prefered instead. They also have a whopping 25 points to turn around on the Manchester clubs which is surely too big an ask for next season.

[curby235]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 City scored the goal that won the championship in injury time of the final game to win the title on goal difference. While I think they deserved to win I do feel that they staggered over the line at the end. City thrashed the same substandard teams early season and also stuggled at times in the run in like losing to Swansea (where United battled to a 1-0 win) and allowed United back into the tiltle race. Their form dipped when Toure went on African nations duty and when Kompany picked up an injury and was missing for 3 games. I think the spine of their team performed outstandingly last season and was easily the strongest in the premier league. Hart, Kompany, Lescott (excelled in tandem with Kompany but was less commanding in his absence), Toure, Silva (early on in the season but his form dipped in the second half) and Aguero were very consistent all year. In contrast United's spine looked inexperienced at times and they ended up being overly reliant on veterans like Ferdinand, Giggs and Scholes. The return of Vidic and the arrival of Kagawa should help rectify that but they need at least 1 more midfielder and also another left back in the short term but in the longer term (over the next 2 years) they will need to add another top class centre half, another central midfielder, another wide player and a striker. Injuries undoubtably played a major factor (they always do) and losing Vidic and Fletcher were massive. Would Everton have comeback if Vidic had played? Would they have conceeded 6 against City? Its hard to predict but it is feasible that he would have made enough difference to have gained United an extra point somewhere. I think if City get no injuries/suspensions to key players, players like Nasri (and to a much lesser extent Silva) perform with more consistency and Tevez and Ballotelli don't launch nukes at their own club they should win again. It is much harder to retain the title than win it however and if United improve and City pick up injuries to a couple of key players I don't think United have to improve that much to win the league.

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 We saw last season how Kompany out of the City team affected the team, they really missed him when he had a 3 game suspension, he is absolutely vital to the team, and he makes Lescott, a poor defender in my eyes, look good. I don't think United have to improve to win the league. Maybe have to improve on the performances, but results wise, 89 points will easily win the league this season in my opinion. City will not have such an imperious home record this season. Ferguson won't go to his grave until he gets the title back off City, and we all know what Ferguson is like when he wants something, don't we?

[Aidymac]

Re: Antepost > 2012/13 I still can't see how in your head you think Arsenal will finish ahead of United. I would put every cent of my savings on with you that they will finish ahead of Arsenal. Heck, i will give you the house too.