Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

[deadlydaveLDN]

This hand takes place shortly after the rebuy period has ended. MP3 is playing 4/4/0 (VPIP/PFR/3-bet) through about 40 hands, and I have 80 hands on CO who is playing 20/10/4. Grabbed by Holdem Manager NL Holdem $200(BB) IPoker SB ($8,600) BB ($13,815) UTG ($6,540) UTG+1 ($3,105) UTG+2 ($12,842) MP1 ($5,940) MP2 ($16,290) MP3 ($9,070) CO ($11,072) Hero ($10,162) Dealt to Hero K K fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP3 raises to $400, CO raises to $1,200, Hero ??? What do you do here and why? Fold, call or raise. If raise, how much?

[teaulc]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? what are blinds Dave? ah just seen 100/200 yeah?

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

what are blinds Dave?

100/200

[Warbirds]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? Might be a completely wrong move here but I believe I'd reraise to 4K I don't want to see an A-high flop vs two opponents possibly. I know MP3 is VERY tight but still he'd raise like that in an unopened pot with many hands my KK beat. If he pushes after I raise... hmm tough spot. Might still call him. CO somehow I',m less concerned about. If any has AA well tough luck Fred

[teaulc]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? looks like 1st player has a medium pair and player 2 has AK or AA,i as hero would probably call in this situation as i couldnt justify pushing unless i saw the flop 1st. it wouldnt hurt too much either if i had to fold when the Ace comes on the flop. but then i am a gutplay player not an odds player and so talking total rot :)

[Nade]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I'd raise to about 3.1k leaving a pot sized shove on and non A flop unless it was something like J9T where i'd think FML and try to get to SD as cheap as possible. MP is a big nit but it's only 40hands, i have thousands of hands on some nits and they can spazz out as good as anyone so i think the key is to make a 4bet that's doesn't look like you're totally committed as then you get them in with a slightly weaker range. It's 45BBs which is kind of a lot AFAIK in a tourn if nit shoves, i wouldn't be loving life, but with only 40hands to go from i'd call prob 100% of times without other reads.

[heniek31]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I would be wary of pushing here. Id raise, but not to 4k. I think that's pretty much put you all in, it doesn't matter what other two will do. I say raise to 2.8-3k, where you can still get away, even pre flop. Like they say, always ask questions. If first one shoves and other calls (or shoves), I'd most probably fold. If one of them fold, but other shoves, I'd still take a chance and call. Otherwise, if I see flop and have some chips left, push on none ace flop.

[Woodie]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I'd also raise to something like 3k here, hoping one of them reships or flats and we can try are best to get it all in on the flop. but shoving in this spot is super standards and I don't mind it but you def get more value long term against bad players 3betting pre.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I didn't really consider a small raise - for me it was shove, call or fold. The reason I didn't consider a small raise is that I feel like by calling I can most likely get the same information once it gets back around to MP3 as if I raise. Obviously if he calls then I know nothing more about CO hand. Grabbed by Holdem Manager NL Holdem $200(BB) IPoker SB ($8,600) BB ($13,815) UTG ($6,540) UTG+1 ($3,105) UTG+2 ($12,842) MP1 ($5,940) MP2 ($16,290) MP3 ($9,070) CO ($11,072) Hero ($10,162) Dealt to Hero KsKc fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP3 raises to $400, CO raises to $1,200, Hero calls $1,200, fold, fold, MP3 raises to $9,070 (AI), CO raises to $11,072 (AI), HERO ???? As played, what do you now do and why?

[teaulc]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? i would be folding here, deffo Aces in one of their hands,and either AQ or AK in the other. you have your info fairly cheaply,move on to the next hand and a better opportunity. if it was just one player i would probably call but 2.......

[trips]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? If i had a bigger stack i may raise to 5000 and hope for both to call,ace high flop and action continues i know am prob beat, no ace shove the flop.10000 stack i would prob shove pf, if am up against aces so be it,not folding kings because there has been 2 raises.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

if am up against aces so be it' date='not folding kings because there has been 2 raises.[/quote'] Whilst normally it would be insane to fold KK preflop, the nature of the opponents that have made the 2 raises make it a possibility in this case. Anyway, I'll post the rest of the hand in a couple of hours, along with some PokerStove numbers that I ran.

[Nade]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I think this decision would be a lot more clear but if you'd have 4bet and they'd both snap shoved we can fold, but as your range is perceived a lot weaker than it is and COs range is still weaker than yours we only really worry about MP3 having exactly AA when he can shove QQ, JJ, AK and KK here too. Basically those 2 players are assuming you have some middle strength hand, like 99 or AJ and will automatically fold to a shove, they're not concerned about you in the slightest and so that definitely slightly widens their range as they assume they'll be in a HU situation which makes AK+ v likely for them. So as we just called the three bet i'd call the shoves too.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

I think this decision would be a lot more clear but if you'd have 4bet and they'd both snap shoved we can fold, but as your range is perceived a lot weaker than it is and COs range is still weaker than yours we only really worry about MP3 having exactly AA when he can shove QQ, JJ, AK and KK here too. Basically those 2 players are assuming you have some middle strength hand, like 99 or AJ and will automatically fold to a shove, they're not concerned about you in the slightest and so that definitely slightly widens their range as they assume they'll be in a HU situation which makes AK+ v likely for them. So as we just called the three bet i'd call the shoves too.

I'm never ever ever flatting a hand like 99 or AJ there with my stack size, they're pretty much insta-muck (I'd definitely be folding JJ here and probably QQ). However, a bad player could think that I am doing this and I guess I am assuming that these are bad players. A good player would take my flat call as extreme strength I think with my stack size as it is.

[Nade]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? Exactly, it's not about what we have, it's about what our opponents think we have. We have to assume they're not great hand readers as barely anyone is so they would definitely include middle strength hands, when i play tourns i see people cold call 3bets and fold to further action all the time. If i was CO in this spot, the range i'd put you on is 99+, probably not AJ but sometimes AQ and work from there. It's technically wrong as you've said you only flat uber strength here but treat me a if i'm CO, a random with no info that's the range i'd put you on and expect you to fold most times to 2shoves.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

Exactly, it's not about what we have, it's about what our opponents think we have. We have to assume they're not great hand readers as barely anyone is so they would definitely include middle strength hands, when i play tourns i see people cold call 3bets and fold to further action all the time. If i was CO in this spot, the range i'd put you on is 99+, probably not AJ but sometimes AQ and work from there. It's technically wrong as you've said you only flat uber strength here but treat me a if i'm CO, a random with no info that's the range i'd put you on and expect you to fold most times to 2shoves.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you, just pointing out that in reality I flat here with nothing other than monsters.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? Ok, what happened in the hand. I folded after a long tank. MP3 showed AQo CO showed AKo MP3 won with a straight. Some numbers to follow.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? Ok, here's the numbers for my first decision, before I've put any chips in the pot. MP3 has a raising range of around 5% (88+,AJs+,KQs+,AKo). CO has a 3-betting range of around 5%. MP3 = 24.283% CO = 24.283% HERO = 51.434% This seems pretty obvious now that I should be raising here, I'm still not sure on a shove or a small raise with the option of folding to 2 shoves? Probably a small raise as most on here suggested. 2nd decision to follow.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? As played, I now have to adjust the ranges slightly. CO I think we can move his range very slightly to 4% (99+,AQs+,AK) - a player like this is hardly ever 3-betting with the intention of folding. Having seen the results it doesn't seem like MP3 intended to ever fold either, however I think most similar players in this situation are playing pretty tight when 3-bet. So I'm going to give him a range of AKs,AKo,JJ+ MP3 = 29.747% CO = 24.391% HERO = 45.862% Again, it's pretty clear that I've made a mistake with my fold, even against 2 shoves.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? Now, if I 4-bet small and they both still shove. I think in this situation we'd have to give MP3 and extremely tight range, possibly just QQ+. CO, having seen me and MP3 shove has to tighten his shoving range, but it's still probably wider than CO as he didn't really 3-bet with the intention of folding too often. We'll give him JJ+,AKs,AKo. MP3 = 39.991% CO = 26.379% HERO = 33.630% So, even if we 4-bet and get 2 shoves it's just about a call. I think the conclusion of this whole thing is that folding KK pre-flop is going to be correct so rarely in any situation that we should never really be doing it. (Obviously ignoring bubble/satellite situations)

[teaulc]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? you say you made a mistake,,,would you have won the hand??? if not then not a mistake.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

you say you made a mistake' date=',,would you have won the hand??? if not then not a mistake.[/quote'] I would have lost the hand, but you can't base your decisions on whether you would have won or not, only on whether it is the correct decision in the long term. What you are suggesting is the same as folding AA preflop and saying it was correct because 27o flopped a full house.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I've run some more numbers which I won't bore you with and Versus these 2 opponents When it comes round to me initially AA and KK should be small 4-bets with the intention of getting it in against any further action. QQ should be a shove. JJ is super close between a fold and a shove. Depends whether you like gambling or not. AKo is a fold and AKs is just about a fold.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why? I think this was a good fold in the end, but only because of the way you allowed the hand to be played out. I would definitely have been raising pre flop. The only hand you can justify flatting with, against 2 players, is AA. If you include KK ,as you did, then you are scared of any ace on the flop which means you wont get as much value from the hand. For what it is worth, in my opinion, they both played the hand bad and then one of them got lucky, so well done for not stacking off. To flat and then shove to the re-raise with AK is just bizarre, and what MP3 was doing with AQ is beyond me.

[kormi]

Re: Pretty Interesting Hand From $10 Rebuy on i-Poker - What would you do and why?

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